No water changes with my Ecosystem

[kyaney]

I have not made any water changes in any of my three tanks in over 3 months. All of my parameters are perfect. Obviously I add necessary additives, but no water changes. I have been working for about 2 years with my Ecosystems to try to get away from water changes completely. I know that alot of people use Ecosystems, but I was just wondering if anyone else has eliminated the need for changes also.

 

[bang guy]

Post again in three years and you'll have my interest.

 

[j21kickster]

Second that, why would you not want to renew your water? There are things that are being depleted other than that of which you are adding to to your tank. This might be the reason why some species do not do well over long term and the term "old tank syndorme" Refreshing your water to keep it closer to natural seawater should be the main goal. When you say your parameters are perfect are yor speaking of just Ammonia, Nitrite,Nitrate, Ph,and temp or do you also mean Chloride,Sodium,Sulfate,Calcium,Potassium,Magnesium,Flouride,Nickel,Phosphorus,Tin,Iron,Cobalt,Manganese,Iodine,Strontium,Bicarbonate,Borate,Sillicate?(to name some) It is imposible to have Perfect water especially with no water changes. water changes are to our advantage but more importantly your tanks. IMO keep with water change, it will help you in the long run

 

[kyaney]

So when I said that I add all of the necessary additives, you must not have understood that I meant all of the necessary additives. I have had my 90 and 120 gal for about 10 years and my 75 for about 7 years, so 'in the long run' doesn't really apply. By doing water changes, you are simply removing , along with the waste products that have built up, all of the necessary and life sustaining chemicals, only to re-supply them with the salt mixture that you add to your water. The goal (my goal, anyhow) was to create a system that is self-sustaining. As far as the waste products goes, I have none. So why would I want to remove chemicals, only to add the same ones. I add RO water to top-off, along with the necessary additives required that get depleted by the lifeforms in the tank.

 

[nm reef]

I have no hands on experience with the eco-system but I have heard a lot of good things about it....still I would be hesitant to totally eliminate water changes. What tests do you run on a regular basis? Do you have any means of measuring or monitoring levels of toxins that may accumulate in your system over extended periods with no water changes. I don't do regular small water changes so much to replenish trace elements as for removing potential toxins that may accumulate over time. Things that are not tested for and not monitored. It just scares me to leave water in the system indefinitely...besides it really is not that big of a job or expense to simply change 5% or so about once a month. The only additives I use are for calcium/alkalinity...and I seldom test levels of phosphates or even less often for iodine. The water changes are done ...for me at least...to remove old stale water with clean fresh water in the hopes of maintaining a stable system that does not build up toxic levels of items not tested for. Just makes sense to me to prevent a potential problem that may occur.I've heard others state that they go extended periods with no changes...but for me thats a risky proposition at best. Then the question becomes...."why not do water changes if they can have a positive impact...when leaving stale water long term may have a negative impact?"

 

[jonthefb]

but, your system isnt self-sustaining if you have to add chemicals to it! at least thats what i consider a self-sustaining system. like one of those eco-sphere aquariums. they are self sustaing because they are totally encapsulated, and nothing goes in or goes out. by emptying your proteing skimmer or whatever you are rmoving wastes, so this is not self sustaining. even if you have some kind of mechanical filter its not self sustaining. Heck, by feeding your fish your are alterign things, a truly self sustained tank wouldnt need to be fed, but since we cant grow huge masses of zoo and phytoplankton, then its feedign that we have to rely on. id have to say im on the bench with the rest of the posts here. i have a 135 that uses some modifications on the Ecosystem method that is the sole means of filtration, other than dsb, adn lr, but it is not self sustaing and i wouldnt dare to even call it that, although it is a more natural means of filtration, and this i think is the closest we can get to nature!
interesting topic though, should play out nicely
good luck
jon

 

[ironreef]

My 120g I don't need to do w/c to get water parameters good. i went 4mo stayed the same. i have an alga tank and skimmer, cal reactor. But I decided just to do monthly w/c just for the unknowns. Sure you remove stuff you add but there probally is alot more wate you are removing. Sure the alga cleans the water good.I have 20g full of caulerpa but my skimmer still pulls out thick gunk. Never know you may never need a w/c but I like the security of doing one. IME I get better results with monthly of every 6 week w/c I've done then weekly, bi weekly every 3 weeks but my tank looks best with monthy. it works better for me also

 

[musipilot]

I run nothing but Ecosystems on our 5 tanks. I understand where you're coming from, and have seen the numbers that support the same theory of NOT doing changes.
However -- for some reason, and I admit I don't have a good scientific one for it -- I still do 10% changes every two weeks. I guess I feel better knowing the water is being 'rotated' in the tank, in the event of buildup of unknown toxins, I suppose.
One thing I have noticed is a slight yellowing of the water over time in some of my systems, and the water changes seem to help that, if nothing else.
Glad to hear of another happy Ecosystemer!

 

[j21kickster]

so in those tanks have you ever done a water change in 10 years? i doubt it. How do you know you are removine the trace elements? one reason of water changes is to replenish them b/c they were depleted, so why spend money on bottles of trace elements (other than calcium, strontium, iodine) to put into your tank when you could replenish them through water changes? I dont know for a fact but im sure there are other toxic chemicals that build up over time other than Ammonia Nitrite and Nitrate. There might be someone who can anwser that. But why not water change? Unless you can prove that not doing water changes is more beneficial than doing them, why would you or anyone, for that matter, not do it? i dont mean to soud rude, if that what it is coming off as. Just asking honest questions.

 

[kyaney]

I have had the tanks for 10 years. It has only been 3 months since a water change. I guess I looked at the big picture. If I was doing a 10% water change every month, that is only 12 gallons on my big tank. Does 10 gallons out of 120 really make a difference. The water isn't 'getting stale'. I add at least 10 gallons a week for top off. The ONLY thing that I am not removing is chemicals that are already in the tank. This is interesting, listening to other peoples views as to why they change their water. I did for the purpose of removing waste products. I never relied on a water change to replenish nutrients, I have always relied on additives for that. As far as self-sustaining. It would be foolish to assume that you could maintain a completly self-sustaining tank. Of course you have to add nutrients and feed your fish. I guess I thought that it was inferred that people would figure that out. By self sustaining I meant the tank was able to break down its own waste products without me having to make water changes to keep the parameters in check. Like I have always said on this site, do whatever works for you. I am by no means a fish guru, but if water parameters are perfect and I am adding plenty of fresh water, why remove what I don't have to.

 

[j21kickster]

it seems that we cant change your mind. In a couple of years tell me how things are going, and dont do a single water change until then. good luck

 

[shadow678]

I can see where kyaney is coming from, and I think the goal is to have a system where water changes are not necessary, thereby reducing the cost and effort of maintaining the system. I think the only true way to test this is to take monthly water samples to be completely analyzed at a lab, such as the Natural Resource Commission. Only then would you be able to tell if there were any untested chemicals that have been building up. Yes, water changes remove trace elements, but not nearly as much as what is replenished from the water change, as the elements have been used and altered by the reef inhabitants. And let's not split hairs on the definition of "self-sustaining'. You knew what the idea of the term was being used for, don't be petty. This would be an excellent topic to start a bit of research. My suggestion would be, kyaney, take a good sample of your water to be fully analyzed, and do this every two weeks. then, compile that data and tell us how it turned out. If there were any toxins that actually collected, or not. I would be very interested in finding out whether or not the "mandatory" water changes are simply an illusion. As we have all seen in other topics of this hobby, beliefs in this hobby change dramatically over time.

 

[plum70rt]

Well on my New system, with the custom built skimmer and Denitrater hooked up and running, the builder tells me no water changes will be necessary at all, just add top off water,
going on 6 weeks , all water great, denitrater not hooked up yet, not enough build up of nitrates yet, will see if it works,

 

[new]

i have an ecosystem that i am going to use on a 30gl reef when i get it up and running. the lfs and professional that claims to help develop the system both told me that water changes are not nesecary with the eco as all nessecary trace elements are replenished through the mud, when i get it running i will try this and see.

 

[ironreef]

ecosystem tell you need to replace the mud every 2 yrs. But IMO thats just a promo. Trace doesn't need to be added. Why? If you feed good foods everyday you are adding 100-10,000x as much as NSW levels. Calcium and buffer you do need to maintain= cal,alk,ph..I'm not big into w/c but I still do them. If you have a spa it's sorta like a reef. Why do a water change? We don't depend on the water for living. We add chemicals to maintain ph and kill bacteria. They have ozone to kill bacteria. But if you don't do water changes every 2-4 mo is used.. the bacteria or balace gets out of wack....But in theory there really is no need to change water but it's better for the spa. I would think occassional W/C for a reef would to nothing but benifit the tank. they say now the sand and LR acts as a sponge and absorbs metals if there no out let for these metals they can get to toxic levels= old tank syndrome. Some suggest this can be from adding mubo jumbo snake oils,to much trace ect.... But I've had reefs for along time and never suffered from old tank syndrome. Just something I hear. I had a 55g for 10years never crashed. My 120g 2 year stong so far. Don't add trace either. The most problems I've had was adding trace. I added everything But if your tank works without w/c thats fine also. But IMO if your tank turns yellow/green you should change the water

 

[broomer5]

Freshly mixed and aerated saltwater, made with RO/DI freshwater is about as good as your water will ever be.
Aside from maybe adjusting the alk and calcium - it's basically pure, and contains most all of the necessary major ions, and many of the trace elements in close proportions to natural seawater.
It's about as good as it gets.
I like to reintroduce the "best" into my tanks now and then.
Mechanical filtrations is great.
Biological and biochemical actions are fantastic.
Skimmers and harvesting macro algea is also good.
Chemical filtration and running carbon or poly filters is super.
But there is no substitute for doing a water change in my opinion.
You can't get it any cleaner than new saltwater, and in a contained system, the solution to pollution is dilution.
But ...to each his own.

 

[kelly]

kyaney,
Do you have any clams in your tanks? They are probably one of the most effective natural filters available. I personally would not have a tank with out doing water changes, but I wish you the best of luck in you endeavor. Every few months keep up posted on the progression of you tank.
In your 2nd post you stated "As far as the waste products goes, I have none." Are you saying that none of your livestock produces any waste products? Are they all plastic? just kidding... All living organisms to my knowledge produce waste products. I will agree that something else in nature may feed off of/or use them, but there are always waste products.
Are you running a skimmer as part of your ecosystem? I sure hope so. Even the oceans skim the water. Anyways, I wish you the best of luck, and again, keep up updated every few months.

 

[heavenly damsel]

If you are keeping a reef tank....chemical warfare is the best reason I know of for routine water changes. The toxins will build up to lethal levels if you don't remove them.

 

[ironreef]

Originally posted by Heavenly Damsel
If you are keeping a reef tank....chemical warfare is the best reason I know of for routine water changes. The toxins will build up to lethal levels if you don't remove them.
I think that would only appy with softies like leathers. But I would put this in with the unknowns IMO. We don't know how much carbon,skimmers and alga filer out the softie toxiens =w/c will remove /delute some. But I do belive in large systems you can get away with less w/c but small ones i would put it into m routine. But if he like no w/c thats fine. it's just ppl who pitch eco systems say they aren't needed = I don't buy. All ecosystems are just alga tanks. They been around for years. Putin a fancy container some mud and bioball and market them. The caulerpa is the filter. I've seen a few ecosystems crash no more no less than anyother system with bad husbantry

 

[josh]

Well,
Every so often a thread like this pops up. I believe the thing that most of us try to avoid, by doing water changes, is the unknown...such as the effect of metals on the tank. In reality how long does a water change take to do, minutes? To me those 15 minutes I spend to swap out some water is worth it. Everyone knows going into this hobby that it is expensive and requires a decent amount of time, espically with reefs. While I don't be grudge you for tyring to shortcut it, is all the time and money you have spent really worth it to save what boils down to a few mintues a month???? I don't think so!
Good luck