Not quite sure what to do here....help!

[islandgirl]

OK guys, I have a good one for you. I have an Eclipse 3 tank with hood that I've had up and running now for about 3 months so I know the tank is still in it's establishing stages. I've had nitrates at 40ppm for about a month now. I've added de-nitrator (Matrix) to my tank as I was told. Put it in a mesh bag and allow it to get as much water flow as possible in the bottom of the tank via a ph. Well that was misinformation since it's been a month, I do regular 15% bi-weekly water changes and nothing has changed. Feeding habits...once daily and very small amounts. All my other parameters are good: A-0, pH: 8.2, trites-0, salinity: 1.023. Fish and soft corals seem fine. So, I called Seacham and they said that the de-nitrator needs to be in as little water flow as possible OK!! So all this time I was doing it the wrong way?! They suggested a homemade canister filter and put the de-nitrate in there with a small ph for water movement. I called Marineland (makers of Eclipse) and they said that adding a cannister filter may cause more filtration (since I have the biowheel) than I would want and may potentially cause problems. They (Marineland) suggested I get a protein skimmer for the tank to help lower the nitrates. Well with my type of tank, the hood doesn't allow much room to add anything more than I already have. Would adding a protein skimmer reduce nitrates? I have a purigen pack in my filter and they said that the purigen should do the work of a protein skimmer since I didn't have the additional room. What are your takes on nano? SO....any suggestions as to what I should get cause I'm starting to pull my hair out

 

[full of questions]

I could be very wrong,nitrates at 40 are really not all that
bad,sure it's not perfect but i really don't thing that nothing
will be harmed by this.Maybe you could feed every other
day.You said that you feed very little,how long does it
take for fish to consume the food that you give them. I
never put more food in then they can eat within about
1 minute,any food falling to the bottom isn't a good
thing.

 

[tlk]

I am starting to get on the RO/DI bandwagon. Are you using tap water or RO/DI. I was surprised when I did a nitrate test on my tap water. While the reading wasn't off the charts, it was high enough to answer some questions for me. Just my .02, but start with what you are putting in your tank when you do your 15% water change. If its just dechlorinated tap water with salt mixture added, that may be the reason why your trates aren't reducing.

 

[flamingkingofhe]

#1 imo the only thing that will be able to do the work of a protien skimmer for you would be a protien skimmer you need to find out what is causing the trates not try to fix them temporarily with a denitator or what not 40 for trates is vary high 20 and under is ok but 0 is perfect i would have to say that any thing over 20 is hazardous to the health of your aquarium i am shocked that your livestock is still live what type of test kit are you using to test the water and how old is it i would take the water to a lfs or someone to get a second test to see if your test kit has gone bad or if it is accurate

 

[flamingkingofhe]

if your trates truly are 40 than you need a skimmer not a trate redoctor or what not
not having a skimmer may be your problem as far as the high trates go how many gallons isyour tank?

 

[califishdude]

My trates have alway sbeen around five, when i moved out in the country i havent really checked anything cuz ive been doing everything the same. I added 200 watts and Tons of LR and LS After i finally found the test kis my well water as a nitrtate of 20, when i tested my tank it was 40+, i reduced my lights from 12-6 hrs, turned up the skimmer and a weekly water change from a Bottled Machine from walmart. It was stupid on my part.

 

[crazy4reefs]

as mentioned above what kind of water are you using for the water changes ? the first time i had a saltwater tank i had the same problems with nitrates and i eventually found out that my tap water had nitrates in it so i changed over to ro/di water and havent had any problems since hth

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by islandgirl
OK guys, I have a good one for you. I have an Eclipse 3 tank with hood that I've had up and running now for about 3 months so I know the tank is still in it's establishing stages. I've had nitrates at 40ppm for about a month now.
...
!! So all this time I was doing it the wrong way?!
...
SO....any suggestions as to what I should get cause I'm starting to pull my hair out
First of all, you are not doing anything wrong. Nitrates are the normal final product of the nitrogen cycle.
Secondly, I agree with the previous poster that 40ppm is prefectly acceptable for fish. Even waterchanges will not reduce nitrates much.
If you must reduce nitrates, the main thing that will reduce nitrates is algae of any form. Algae uses the nitrates as food (plant food), and therefore completes the nitrogen cycle. My 20 g long I use for macro algae culture went for 50 ppm to 0.0 nitrates in one month even with a 1" mollie in the tank.
So bottom line is to 1) not worry that much about it and 2) encourage algae growth. Macro algae can be very attractive in aquaria

 

[islandgirl]

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys. I've actually talked to quite a few people and they said that 40ppm isn't dangerous for the fish. My goal is to get the trates down to 20ppm then maybe lower. The water I use is RO from my lfs, I wouldn't use anything but that. I've also tested the RO water, free and clear of any trates or phosphates. I understand that I need macro algae to absorb the trates and because I don't have any true algae growth in my tank at the moment, that could be the route of my problem. QUESTION: where's the best place to get macro algae? I don't want it to consume my tank however and that's what algae does.
flamingkingofhe:
what type of test kit are you using to test the water and how old is it i would take the water to a lfs or someone to get a second test to see if your test kit has gone bad or if it is accurate
I use Quick Tabs to test my trates and I got it from my lfs, got in a month ago. I even took a sample of my water and they tested for me...same reading.
Also, I believe I have come to the route of why I have high trates, because I don't have any algae growth in the tank. I'm assuming green film on the glass doesn't count for that need of algae right? I also don't have a protein skimmer to take wastes, etc out of the tank. That could be a reason too.
So...anybody else got suggestions / comments?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by islandgirl
Thanks for the words of encouragement guys. I've actually talked to quite a few people and they said that 40ppm isn't dangerous for the fish. My goal is to get the trates down to 20ppm then maybe lower. The water I use is RO from my lfs, I wouldn't use anything but that. I've also tested the RO water, free and clear of any trates or phosphates. I understand that I need macro algae to absorb the trates and because I don't have any true algae growth in my tank at the moment, that could be the route of my problem. QUESTION: where's the best place to get macro algae? I don't want it to consume my tank however and that's what algae does.

There are several places to order macro algae including saltwaterfish.com (this board). They have shaving brushes. They ship them the same as fish.
I paid about $5.00 for a bunch from my LFS. It lasted about 2 weeks with the crabs having a taste for salads LOL. That is when I decided to culture Macro in a seperate tank to transfer parts to the main tank.
You could search google or ---- for macro algae to find sources. I am awaiting an order for various bush like plants from one source, but so far they have not delivered. Sounds like someone in florida that goes to the beach to harvest the stuff.
....
I'm assuming green film on the glass doesn't count for that need of algae right? I also don't have a protein skimmer to take wastes, etc out of the tank. That could be a reason too.
So...anybody else got suggestions / comments?
Wrong! the green film is micro algae but algae none the less. If you would let that grow and accumulate, nitrates would come down. but that is probably not an option.
Just an observation here. Algae (plants) do more than just reduce nitrates. That is just the most obvious. Equally obvious is that algae needs CO2 for photo systhesis. Therefore algae removes CO2 allowing for more oxygen in the water. Add the fact thay provide hiding places for fish you get a lot of benifits. There is even some thought that algae filters out the more harmful stuff.
A protien skimmer is considered essential by most. But not me. My thought is that fish waste (primarily urea) produces amonnia nitrate which is consumed by the algae. At some point an equilibrium is established where both the fish and algae support each other.

 

[timsedwards]

hi just so you know beaslbob we are not allowed to mention a competitors name on this board if SWF.Com sell that product. The best thing to do is ask for their email and then send it to them.
All the best,
Tim.

 

[califishdude]

I used regular tap water on my tank before, know i have well watre, i dont have good water pressure and im only living here till my gets her teaching degreee(3Yrs) so installinga ro/di wouldnt be a good ida. its almost better getting water form the store, i need to test the water first before i had it and if its bad i can use it for drinking watre.(nitrate wise)

 

[islandgirl]

timsedwards...
hi just so you know beaslbob we are not allowed to mention a competitors name on this board if SWF.Com sell that product. The best thing to do is ask for their email and then send it to them.
Oops....I didn't mean to get anyone in trouble
beaslbob, thanks for that tidbit of information (as well as everyone else). I think we're on the same page as far as the protein skimmer is concerned...plus my downfall is with the eclipse 3 and hood, there really is no room for any kind of hang-on. If I were to get this macro-algae, would I have to house it in a separate tank? I've read on numerous posts that people do that. If I put the algae in my tank, what is the process, meaning how would I go about doing that? Do I have to "plant" it? Walk me through that process so that I can understand a little more about how it works.... oh BTW...what's a shaving brush? I may be able to get it from my lfs and it last since I don't have any crabs...unless you're referring to hermits! Can you recommend types of algae I can purchase?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by timsedwards
hi just so you know beaslbob we are not allowed to mention a competitors name on this board if SWF.Com sell that product. The best thing to do is ask for their email and then send it to them.
All the best,
Tim.
thanks and sorry i did not know the rules. Sorry
Actually you don't sell the same algae but point is well taken anyway.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by islandgirl
timsedwards...
Oops....I didn't mean to get anyone in trouble
you didn't-- I did. I really enjoy this board and am still learning
beaslbob, thanks for that tidbit of information (as well as everyone else). I think we're on the same page as far as the protein skimmer is concerned...plus my downfall is with the eclipse 3 and hood, there really is no room for any kind of hang-on. If I were to get this macro-algae, would I have to house it in a separate tank? I've read on numerous posts that people do that. If I put the algae in my tank, what is the process, meaning how would I go about doing that? Do I have to "plant" it? Walk me through that process so that I can understand a little more about how it works.... oh BTW...what's a shaving brush? I may be able to get it from my lfs and it last since I don't have any crabs...unless you're referring to hermits! Can you recommend types of algae I can purchase?
this board under the u build it section has shaving brushes. take a look.
Macro algae is not a true plant as in a seperate root, stem, and leaf sections. they are basically algaes which have decided to band together into something the looks like a plant. My "planting" is basically holding them down with a rock. Some (like shaving burshes) do have hold downs which must be placed in sand.
I used a seperate tank to preserve the algae I got. All you need is basically some container that will hold saltwater. Some use rubbermaid type containers for instance. If you change water, the old tank water will do just fine. If you do have the plant like algae then a little sand for the holddowns would help. give it some light and a week or so later you should have nice new macro algae to transfer to the main tank. I didn't even have any circulation in my marco algae tank. Test the water and i think you will find nitrates will go to 0.0.
my email beaslbob@aol.com

 

[broomer5]

islandgirl,
I'll toss in some stuff here too.
I too am a big fan of using macro algae as a way to export nitrate.
It's true that the algae will consume some of the nitrate as it grows. What truely exports the nitrate/phosphate is when you "remove" the algae from the tank.
Excess nutrients are used by the plant to grow plant tissue. You can think of these nitrates as being trapped in the plant.
They are still there - and if the plant were to die ... then the tissue would rot - and the nutrients would once again go back into the water.
If you reach in and grab some of the algae, and remove it from the tankwater ... you are truely exporting it.
It's no longer a part of the tank.
It's outta there.
Also as mentioned .. nitrate is part of the nitrogen cycle.
Having a living deep sandbed is one way to reduce it.
Growing and removing macro algae is another.
Water changes will remove a percentage .. providing you have nitrate free saltwater to do the change.
Overfeeding is a sure fire way to end up with excess nitrate.
So is a having a lot of fish in a relatively small tank.
Lastly .. the top off water that you use to replace evaporated tankwater can also be a souce of nitrate.
Lot's to think about. If you want more info on a macro algae planted refugium ....... just ask.
Often it's a "combination" of several things we do that allow a hobbiest to keep the tankwater low in nitrates.
Many on this board use some form of a refugium, along with a deep sandbed, keep light bioloads and strictly avoid overfeeding...... and have had great success lowering their nitrate levels.

 

[timsedwards]

No Problem beaslbob and island girl
Just in the Reef forum they are pretty sharp on that, its mainly just out of respect for our hosts giving this to us for free etc. You are allowed to give web addresses of manufacturers or of online shops that dont ship to USA. With my situation in England, I can post www.angliaaquatics.com They dont ship to USA so there is no competition to SWF.com.
All the best, glad you are enjoying the boards
Tim.

 

[brewercm]

Islandgirl
I've seen a sea-clone protein skimmer put into that type of setup before. Not the best skimmer but a skimmer none the less if you feel like it would really help.
The LFS had cut out a hole in the back of the canopy (if looking from the back it would be on the left side) and was able to fit it in that way. Tight fit but it did work, if you have a dremel tool or know somebody that does it would be fairly easy. To this date that is the only skimmer I've seen set up on one thoug.
Good luck

 

[islandgirl]

Cool....more info...thanks! I think getting some macro algae may be the way to go, to help with the nitrates. I saw the shaving brushes...they look pretty cool actually, and reasonable. So if I were to purchase some shaving brushes, how many should I get for my 37gallon? I saw they sell for 5 in a bunch. Would it be better to put them directly in the tank (instead of a refugium)to see how they adapt then transfer as they spread? I'm trying to figure the best & quickest way possible for my situation. I think I could use some more refugium information and how that would work with the container...

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by islandgirl
Cool....more info...thanks! I think getting some macro algae may be the way to go, to help with the nitrates. I saw the shaving brushes...they look pretty cool actually, and reasonable. So if I were to purchase some shaving brushes, how many should I get for my 37gallon? I saw they sell for 5 in a bunch. Would it be better to put them directly in the tank (instead of a refugium)to see how they adapt then transfer as they spread? I'm trying to figure the best & quickest way possible for my situation. I think I could use some more refugium information and how that would work with the container...
I think they are about 4-5" tall so space in a 37g might be a factor. Talk to saltwaterfish.com. I think that with a $75 min order you need to order 4 sets or 20 plants. That would be a whole bunch in a 37g. And they need a sand bottom for their hold downs. You might try a few in the tank and the rest in some container.
The refugium you can research in the DYI section. They can be very complicated there. One thing is an in-tank refugiurm which is basically adding something to seperate your livestock from the macro (like a piece of plexiglass for instance). If you set up a seperate container, you could do a manual transfer of water between it and the tank once a week or so. good luck.