Nothing is going right!!!

[moorea2]

I need to vent here.
Nothing seems to be going right.
I waited VERY patiently for my cycle to complete. Three months later it seemed to be done cycling (It actually probably did not take that long but my PH probe was not calibrated correctly so I thought the PH was high, I finally tested the PH with my test kit and it was dead on!!!
During my cycle I was having some heat problems so I did a bunch of research and bought a chiller that arrived a few days ago. I added my cheato and for one entire day evrything seemed to be working fine!!!
Then my PH and Alkalinity dropped and my Amonia raised. Urgh. I actually have another post trying to figure out what is wrong with my water levels. But I guess that was not enough for me to worry about because about an hour ago my two day old $720 Trade Wind 1/4 HP chiller made a funny noise and stopped chilling. It is still running but it is not chilling at all. It makes a clicking sound every few moments!!!!!
I have spent over a year and a half planning and researching this system, and a year and a ton of money to put it all together! I've spared no expense and waited patiently for the tank to cycle. I thought I was doing everything right!!!!
Am I just not cut out for this hobby...
Does anybody have any ideas of what has happened to my chiller. I know patients is the most important part of the hobby but I do not feel like waiting for it to be replaced or fixed or whatever!!!! All I wanted to do was go online on Monday and order a few crabs and snails. After a year of building and three months of cycling is that really to much to ask???

 

[wattsupdoc]

No it's not too much to ask! And I think you are cut out for this hobby!

You've shown a great deal of patience and have done a ton of planing. As far as the chiller, I could'nt tell you. i dont have one and dont know anything about them. Try putting a fan blowing on the water for now unless you get it fixed. If this cools it down to at least around 86 IMO, I would go ahead and order the clean up crew and cool it with the fans. Troubles are abound in this hobby! It tests you're problem solving skills alot!

 

[moorea2]

I already have fans running above the tank.
With the fans it is running at about 82 or 83 degrees.
The problem is that is the tempature without my Metal Halides and other lighting.
Without the chiller I am unable to run any of my lighting it gets up to about 86 with the lighting even with the fan. It might even get higher that is the temopature I've turned everything off at.
I am now pretty worried about my cheato because I cant even run the fuge lighting.
I know the cleanup crew does not need lighting... but asside from the chiller I still have the problem that my PH and Alk dropped and my amonia raised.
Guess I'll wait a little longer.
So far it has all been about spending money and waiting... A year and 3 mo's later I'd love to experience something else. I had a small moment of pleasure when I put my cheto in but that was destroyed when my water levels changed and chiller broke.

 

[ryanhayes9]

does the chiller haver a warrenty

 

[moorea2]

Yup - 2 year warranty. For $50 I can extend it to 5 (which now I might just do) "In the unlikely event" that anything happens to it within the first 90 days the manufacturer will even pay for shipping both ways to have it repaired. I am sure that will take a week or so! I guess it will give me some time to figure out what is going on with my water levels...
I really wanted to put something living (asside from sand, rock and algea) this week!

 

[moorea2]

For that matter if they are only going to repair and not replace it I basically just paid $700 for a refurbished unit.

 

[fishy7]

moorea2,
Let me share a little story with you:
I did just as you, a bunch of research and then spent a truck load(maybe 2) of money getting my 215 up and running. Anything from pumps to fish.
I am very careful when adding things to the tank, that goes from chemicals to corals. This is in essance a closed system and anything you introduce can be a huge nightmare before you know it. We all have been there. Wrong fish and so on.
Unfortunately we have this thought process that says well if I spend enough money then my tank will be problem free. :thinking: The day you realize this is far from the truth then the hobby really begins.
I bought all my LR, sand and cleanup crew at the same time. The rock and some of the sand came from a tank that had been running for 8 years. SO you think all is cool? humm :thinking:
My system has been running for 8 months and here is a list of the problems:
1) 3 anemones have died

2) 8 shrimp deaths

3) algae bloom issues

4) broken house-fam and kitchen flooded at 3AM
5) over 200 hermit deaths

6) THE LATEST. MANTIS SHRIMP & WORMS
It appears the mantis shrimp is the blame for issue #'s 1,2 & 5.
I share this not as a complaint but more as an example that SW keeping is a never ending problem solving adventure.
There are a few certanties with SW.
1) expect to do a lot of problem solving
2) expect to spend money
3) never expect that things will be perfect. Things change all the time which will and can be very irritating
4) you are very lucky if you have a problem from time to time
5) if you do not have any issues, find a new hobby. Boring with no problem solving.Of couse this is my opinion.

Have fun with the hobby, it is very rewarding when you take care of a pain in the but issue. I am looking forward to saying good bye to my mantis.

 

[moorea2]

I understand all that. This is actually my second attemopt at the hobby. I had a 75 gallon display tank (it is now my sump/fuge for my new 120) that we did EVERYTHING wrong on. I was unable to keep anything alive it was always covered with algea. About a year and a half ago I tore it down completely so I can research and learn the right way!
If I learned anything from this board the most important thing on the list of "doing it right" is patience! And a year and half later (researching the parts and setup, waiting for parts to come in, 1000 hours on this board, waiting for the stand to built, waiting for glue to dry, driving 45 minutes to town every day for a month to replace the "wrong" plumbing part or pick up the missing part, waiting for live rock to cure, a three month cycle...) I think I've practiced patience!
I promised myself I would not rush into to putting ANYTHING in the tank until it is EXACTLY where I want it to be.
I was so close to finally adding something live... And for 30 hours everything was finally running perfectly... it seemed like all my patience was going to pay off with a small reward... My clean up crew! But I am back to waiting.
This post was really just me venting. There was a few minutes last night I was ready to just give up and list the tank in the classifieds...
But as pointed out that is what this hobby is all about. And I'm ready to tackle it again today! I'm certainly not going to take up gardening (dont have the green thumb for it)

 

[kalied20]

Just my opinion, but venting is good. I was told that a nano was the way to go from my LFS and they told me nothing but lies to get me to buy things. I have only been working on my 24 gallon for a little over 7 months now and everyday something different.
Just this weekend I took the stock hood off to add a MH lighting that clipped on to the side. The corals and fish love it, but.......and a BIG BUTT.....
..the tank was cooling at night to 72 degrees. This wouldn't be a problem except I have been keeping my tank at a steady 79-80. Didn't even think that removing the hood would let all the built up heat out at night. All the corals were looking bad this morning and the fish were very slow. Fixed it with a much bigger heater today, but dang LFS....need to learn their stuff and tell the truth about things. They are going to get our money anyways if they just had a little more customer appreciation. They have caused me to kill a beautiful anemone, cleaner shrimps, and many hermits. I don't believe a word they say anymore. I actually told a customer in their store about what they needed to solve a problem because I overheard them telling bad advice again.

Anyways, how's that for venting......

 

[moorea2]

That is pretty good for venting!
It isn't hard to find a zillion posts on the frustrations caused by the LFS on this board...
I am wondering if there is anybody out there that actually likes their local fish store.
I live literally in the middle of nowhere there is only one local fish store to choose from and it really really really stinks. And considering it is a 45 minute drive it really isn't "Local"
They are the cause of all of my misguided attempts of my first setup. Now I will only go in there for a dry good that I have done a ton of research on that I need ASAP. Even then it is rare they have what I want in stock or know what it is, so 99.9% of what I buy is online now. He is to arrogant, unkowledgable and over priced. I hate giving him a penny!
When I was shopping for a skimmer to go into my fuge I figured I would swing in there and price shop... They actually told me there is no such thing as the type of skimmer I was looking for and I would have to go with a hang on. I had already picked out my EV120 so I just laughed and left. Guess my skimmer is a figment of my imagination. It sure produces a bunch of gunk for an imaginery product.

 

[moorea2]

On a positive note....
Trade Wind offers wonderful support and they are hopefull that a few minutes of phone tech support will fix my chiller (the one that started this post)
Of course sticking to the title of this thread "Nothing is going right!!!" my husband has taken the tool needed to remove the cover to work with him. So I will have to wait till tomorrow to open it and try to fix it with them over the phone.

 

[murph]

Hmmm... Is the house not air conditioned? Keeping the ambient room temp around 78 and using fans should allow you to not even use a chiller IMO.
On the other hand I think you may just be over thinking things. Common problem with beginner golfers also. In other words your physicing yourself out. Patience is fine but in your case I think its time to jump into things
Check the accuracy of your ammonia test kit. I find it unlikely ammonia has gone up unless there has been a mass die off of something.
Also IMO the tank is never going to begin to stabilize in earnest until some life is added to level out the nitrogen cycle. Yes I know damsels are mean and eventually will have to be removed but just go down to the LFS and buy a few and introduce them to your tank. They should be able to deal with the tank temp even if you cant get that situation rectified in the short term and and the tank can begin leveling off.
As for PH and akl problems try a kalkwasser drip. Get a gallon milk jug, a gallon of distilled white vinegar, an IV drip at the drug store or possibly LFS (a good one should have some kind of drip dosser) and a pound of kalkwasser.
Add 20ml of distilled white vinegar to the milk jug and then 4 level teaspoons of kalk powder and mix. After the powder is well mixed with the vinegar top the jug off with RO/DI water or even tank water and then set it up so that it can be dripped into your sump or tank with the IV unit. About a drip a second and preferably over night.
Check your alk and PH levels and it wont be but a week before you get a feel for how much and how often dosing the tank in this manner will be necessary. Likely a gallon every night but keep an eye on those levels for the first week. Once gotten the hang of kalk dripping will give you rock solid PH and alk levels.
Enjoy the damsels for a few months while you continue to get the hang of things. It is likely they will live through any mistakes you may make and if not they were cheap.
Reading books/research is great. Visiting forms also a plus. But neither of these can take the place of personal hands on experience which the damsels will give you. I lay ten to one they will do just fine and give you the confidence boost to get you over the hump and start enjoying your tank.

 

[murph]

Just read you post on the PH. Keep in mind PH will go down during lights out/overnight. This is normal so check your PH at the same time each day and as I said consider a kalk drip. The kalk drip will also at the vary least maintain the calcium level you have and if you find it to be low the use of calcium additives can be used to bring it up and then nightly use of kalk will keep it at those levels unless you have a high calcium demand in the tank which at this point you dont.

 

[moorea2]

Nope the house is not air conditioned!!!!
My levels are only off what they were after the cycle by a little bit. The amonia only went up a few points (from 0 to 0.02). The Ph went from 8.17 to 8.04 and the Alk went from 3.5 to 2.5. I was hoping the PH would go up a bit as my target was 8.2 or 8.3 but instead it went down.
The real problem though has not been the water levels but the temp. Without AC in the house the tank gets hot. Not so hot that I cant put anything in but hot enough that I cant run the fuge lighting or the metal halide lighting. I am at about 80 - 81 degrees with the all lighting off. Once I turn on the lights it is getting to about 84 - 85. My target temp is 78.
It isn't much fun to add life to the tank if you cant see it!
I do not want to put damsels in, they are to hard to get out of the tank and will not go well with my intended stock list. I have however spoken to a trusted sorce who feels my water levels will not harm my clean up crew (which includes a fish) So considering nothing in my clean up crew needs lighting I have ordered it and it will be here on Wednesday

I am hoping the addition of the crew will help level out the PH, ALK and Amonia and once my chiller is fixed I will begin adding my fish from there.
As far as hands on experience goes I have had plenty... Unfortunately it has been in killing stuff. That is why I tore everything down and decided to go slowly!
Thank you VERY much for the information. If my PH and ALK do not reach my target over the next few weeks I will try the drip.

 

[murph]

Another thought is to not run MH until there is something in the tank that needs it. As I am sure your aware of the bulbs alone are on the pricey side so why burn em up on a tank that, for now, does not need them.
I can understand the frustration when one thing after another seems to go wrong but also keep in mind that this is a hobby and if everything went like clock work on a continual basis boredom would soon set in.
Above all try to take things in stride and keep in mind that the life you put in your tank has about the same odds of making it to a ripe old age as if they were left in the wild. About a fifty fifty chance at best.

 

[fishguy84]

From what I've found out about sumps/fuges, it's a great idea to run the sump's light cycle reverse of the tank. Murph is right, your PH will fluctuate, but running the fuge opposite of the tank will stabilize it a little better, as long as you have cheato/coulerpa in both or something like that. Of course a kalk drip is just fine too, and will stabilize your tank quite further.
ooooo... extended waranty!

Keep us updated on the chiller. I had the chiller on the 100gal feeder tank at work break, and now it's running at a sweaty 75 rather than a pleasant 60. Of course for goldfish that's no big deal. Tell that to the big wigs.

Another alternative to damsels is actually mollies. yup. mollies. as in the freshwater version of the rabbit. Just salt drip them for several hours, dump half the bucket, drip some more, and they'll adapt to salt. You may find one or two that just simply don't like the salty lifestyle, but for the most part they actually prefer brackish/full salt water.

 

[moorea2]

Well here is the update on the Chiller. It is working now. My husband spoke to their support team and then came home and tried some of the stuff they suggested. He is not sure what he did or how he did it but it started working. The problem was it was working on off for about the first hour of playing with it and then out of the blue started working steadily. He basically just unconnected and reconnected some of the connections. But at no point could he duplicate something that worked or did not work from a previous attempt.
I am still a bit worried, we do not really know what fixed it or if it will stay fixed. Based on my warranty I can send it in for repair and they will pay for the shipping. But if I do that it is like paying $720 for a refurbished item. I have someone calling me back tomorrow and I am hoping to talk them into to sending me a brand new one. When you pay retail price for such a high ticket item it should work for more then a day!
As far as the MH's go I did not have them on through my 3 month cycle. I only started running the lighting the day before I put in the cheato so I could get my tempature steady.
The odd thing is I was under the impression that if your lighting was going to affect your PH that it would go down when the lights were off and up when they were on. For the 3 months that my lights were off the PH was up. The day after I started running my lights (24 hours between the display and the fuge) it went down!
I did a water change and added a power head to the fuge and the PH has come up a bit. It is now at 8.17. I have ordered my clean up crew (which includes a lawn mower bleany) it will be here tomorrow. I still would like the PH to come up a bit more. It is an unistablished system so hopefully adding some life and regular water changes will get me where I want to be! I decided to wait and see what happens after I add the critters and then decide if I want to do the drip thing.
Due to the fact that my RO/DI system takes so long to produce water I have decided to do two 5 gallon water changes per week. This should allow me to make enough water for my daily top off's.
All in all I am in much better spirits and back to being excited and happy about my "hobby"

Thanks to All!

 

[promisetbg]

One of the problems of establishing and cycling a tank,but not putting life in it or feeding the bacteria,is that alot or most of it can die. Go very slow with the addition of fish..so that the bio-load is'nt too much for the bacteria that is left. Do you have alot of surface movement/agitation? This will help with PH. What about a skimmer..do you have one and is it running? this will also help to oxygenate the water and raise the PH. Running the refugium opposite daylight hours also helps.

 

[ophiura]

My other suggestion is do not look for absolutes. Do not aim for a pH of 8.2...do not, IMO, even stress out if your nitrates aren't 0. :scared:
Trying to match the "ideals" means a whole lot of messing with a tank, and messing with it can lead to bigger problems. Stability, IMO, is more important than absolutes. Better for your tank, better for your nerves

.
Your pH is fine anywhere from 7.8 to 8.4 IMO so long as it is stable. pH issues arise from a number of things, so be sure your alk and calcium are checked and never add a "pH buffer" unless your alkalinity is a problem.

 

[moorea2]

Yes, there is a ton of flow. I have a closed loop system for water flow and the water dropping from the tank into two seperate chambers into my sump fuge and then being returned was so powerful that I actually had to cut the flow down a bit as it was stirring up the sand in my fuge. I also added a power head to the fuge in an attempt to increase the water movement when the PH dropped.
I am definately on the "slow" plan. I have a list of things I want to stock the tank with. It is not a very large list as I want to keep my bio load low (7 fish) I am starting with the clean up crew and my time line will be about 1 year before I add my last fish maybe longer depending on how things go.
There is actually some life in there on the rock. We have noticed a bunch of feather dusters starting to open recently since the tank has cycled and the cheato I ordered came "dipped" in pods. I do not know if this small ammount of life will affect the bacteria you were discussing.
I also do not have the lights exactly on a 24/7 schedule there is actually an hour when the DT lights go off before the fudge lights go on and and hour after the fuge lights go off before the DT lights come on. should I change this or will those two hours not really make a difference.
It is funny you mentioned the skimmer. I just started another thread in regards to it. It is an EV120 and here is the link to the post:
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthread.php?t=219769