OK I'm a little Confused

[audisteve]

I'm just a tad confused, a little help from the experts would be much appreciated. I ordered 30lbs. of Lalo liverock and the instruction sheet said to perform 50% water changes a week. But from some of the posts I've read here people say that I should not change the water at all until the tank has cycled. What should I do? Keep in mind that my ammonia is at or around 8ppm. Some friendly advice would be wonderful.

 

[wocka]

ive heard just to let it cycle. i never changed my water during the cycle, LFS told me not too

 

[midasblenn]

If you are using the rock to cycle the tank then dont change any water until you amonia and nitrite are back to 0 and your nitrate is down to 25 or less. Then do a 25% change and add your cleanup crew.
When you cycle a tank you are growing bacteria in the filtration system that eat the amonia and nitrite. If you do a water change and take half the amonia and nitrite out of the tank then how do expect the bacteria to grow?
I studied this for months before I got my 75 and used the same process for the 75 and the 90. Both are extremely stable tanks now. It was worth the extra week or two!
Just my opinion.
Now, if you are curing the rock in a separate container and then transferring it to the tank, change away!

 

[tizzo]

Originally posted by midasblenn
If you are using the rock to cycle the tank then dont change any water until you amonia and nitrite are back to 0 and your nitrate is down to 25 or less. Then do a 25% change and add your cleanup crew.
When you cycle a tank you are growing bacteria in the filtration system that eat the amonia and nitrite. If you do a water change and take half the amonia and nitrite out of the tank then how do expect the bacteria to grow?
I studied this for months before I got my 75 and used the same process for the 75 and the 90. Both are extremely stable tanks now. It was worth the extra week or two!
Just my opinion.
Now, if you are curing the rock in a separate container and then transferring it to the tank, change away!
:yes:

 

[squidd]

Doing a few partial WCs at this point, while it may extend the "cycle time" will lower Ammonia levels to a "tolerable" level for the "life forms" on the Live Rock...
If the Ammonia levels get too high for too long, you may find your Live rock killing itself...
Yes the bacteria is reproducing, but any pods,filter feeders, worms,sponges,etc.. will not tolerate high Ammonia levels...

 

[bang guy]

Water changes during a cycle don't extend the cycle time. I don't know who dreamed that one up but I've heard it for years.
If you want to keep the diverse populations of critters that came with your rock you'll want to do a lot of water changes to keep ammonia below 0.5ppm. Amquel will also help for times when water changes don't get the ammonia levels low.
Bang

 

[midasblenn]

There you go. 2 say no changes, one says small changes and one says major changes. Seeing things any clearer?
I speak from experiance with my tanks and I'm sure Bang Guy and Squidd are doing the same.
I have all kinds of creatures from small feather dusters to button polyps and even a small emerald crad that survived my method. Maybe I just got some really good rock with very little die-off. And when I added my cleanup crew and then my fish, there was absolutely no movement in amonia/nitirte levels due to the stability of the ecosystem.
The bottom line is that there are obviously several ways to reach the same goal. My suggestion is that you find someone local that has completed a successful setup and listen to them. If you try to follow a little bit of everyone's plan you will wind up in the middle of the road getting squashed.

 

[reefer44]

i would do water changes....if the amonia and nitrates spike they will kill things that you want in your tank like bang said........if you do a 50 percent the first 3 weeks than take it down to 25 percent for 3 weeks than do 10 percent and keep at 10 percent forever........also ppl make the mistake with adding fish first...if it is going to be a reef..... add inverts...than corals (this is after about 4 months) than add your fish (no earlier than 7 months)...the reason for this is because many fish are planktavors (including clownfish) and will destroy your plankton pop. and a lot of diversity before there levels can be maintaned with pretadors.....if you follow these instructions it will pay off cause you corals and fish will have natural food..therefore better color, health, and overall vigor
Brad

 

[audisteve]

Thanks for the advice but here's a noggen scratcher.
Help if you can.
Day 1: Live rock introduced Ammonia over 8ppm.
Day 4: 50% Waterchange and addition of Amquel+ after the water change Ammonia between 3 and 6ppm.
Day 5: Ammonia at .5ppm and stable.
What the heck is going on?

 

[midasblenn]

For 4 days you were growing bacteria to eat the amonia and convert it to nitrite. Then you took half the amonia out of the tank. It didnt take long for the bacteria that you had already grown to clear the rest. The up side to this method is that you may have saved some organisims in your rock that might be hurt by sustained high amonia levels. The downside is that the food supply for the bacteria is significantly reduced. So when you add other creatures that produce amonia you may not have sufficient filtration to break it down and you will see another spike. The ecosystem is not as stable using the water change method IMO.
Check your nitrite level as that is the next stage. Amonia converts to nitrite and nitrite converts to nitrate. You remove the nitrate by making water changes.

 

[bang guy]

Just a difference of opinion I guess.
I cannot see how a water change can limit the bacteria population if there's still ammonia in the water.

 

[squidd]

A water change will affect the "total" available population of bacteria by limiting the amount of "food" available to sustain them.
As long as there is "some" food available..."some" population of bacteria will continue to grow...
If you remove "all" the food or they consume "all" the food "all" the bacteria will die...
So in some sense this could affect the "cycle time" by limiting the level of available bacteria to less than that needed to "sustain" a continuous bio load ...IE: when you can add fish...
The biggest difference here is between the "original cycle" IE: introducing a bacteria population through a dead shrimp or a pile of uncured live rock and the "sustainable bio load level" which is also a "cycle" of changing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate , but on a continuous basis...
This is where Bangs theory of "feeding" an empty tank allows a slow, steady, controllable "sustainable" and non spiking cycle to occur...building the bacteria "population" to match the available food supply...
In the same way we add one fish and then allow a period of time to pass for the bacteria population to match (balance) the waste level, before adding the next fish...thereby hopefully avoiding poisonous ammonia and nitrite spikes...
How all this relates to the post at hand is...If you add a whole bunch of uncured rock or a ten pound dead shrimp or ten damsels in a new tank, the ammonia level will skyrocket causing toxic tank conditions..."A" bacteria population will start to grow and process waste...If you allow "this" amount of "food" to be processed and "this" population level of bacteria to "cycle through" you may have enough to support your first fish's waste..."Short" cycle time...
If you do lots of water changes at this time...you remove the toxic ammonia (good thing for other live rock lifeforms) but you also remove lots of the food load for the bacteria to multiply "up" to...At the end of this cycle you may not have a large enough population to balance the first fish's waste production, you "May" have an additional "mini cycle" as the bacteria struggle to keep up..."Extended" cycle time...

 

[audisteve]

Thanks for the information. Geeze I never knew that I would learn so much about biology and chemistry in just a couple of weeks. Thanks you guys for all of your thoughts.

 

[bang guy]

Squidd I agree with almost everything you said, actually I agreed with everything but there's one point I think you're missing. You obviously know what you're talking about and this can only come from experience. Experience I respect
If Ammonia levels are zero that does not mean there is no ammonia in the tank. It could, but usually it just means the bacteria in the tank are at a population balance where they consume all ammonia produced - Or, it means there's not quite enough ammonia and bacteria levels will decrease.
If ammonia in the tank is detectable, say 0.5ppm (normally considered non-toxic to all but the most delicate organisms) that means the bacteria are not keeping up with the ammonia level and their population will rapidly increase.
It is my understanding than nitrifying bacteria populations will continue to increase until all available ammonia is consumed. This is why I recommend doing water changes during a cycle only if the ammonia level is greater than 0.5ppm. A 20% water change will only lower ammonia to 0.45% and the bacteria populations will not be limited by food.
Great thread Squidd... thank you

 

[shawna]

oh god (another newbe snooping around trying to learn from outhers wisdom) I cycled with brackish water mollies and 130 lbs of lr at the advice of a large pet store ...then at 3 months placed 3 clowns in cleaning crew has bien in for months now I've said it before I trust the people on this site and I'm heart sick does this mean that my 90 will never be able to support corals and aneminies and delicate things? please forgive the intrusion but as I have said I learn more here than I have from any books...they all seem to contradict each other I have 3 clowns (and 2 mollies left) should I get them out and if so how would I start again or am I just a lil paranoid I really do want to do everything properly and I hope you will forgive the intrusion

thank you for your patience I hope that in a few years that I can feel as confident as you all must be.
shawna

 

[audisteve]

Ok, here's another question for the experts and the experienced.
I'm still obviously cycling but...
Ammonia is 0 in less than 5 days from start!
But Nitrites and Nitrates are literaly so high they are untestable, they are through the roof.
Are high nitrites just as toxic as high ammonia. Will a water change suffice?
What to do?
Man...I just realized how much of a newbie I am...sorry about all the questions, I'm just anal like that.

 

[shawna]

steve I really hope they didn't stop posting because I butted in I am also a newbe to compuer things as well and I hope that asking wasn't taken as an intrusion or ment to be rude I'm really sorry & I won't do that again they need an oops I was stupid Icon just for me!
shawna

 

[squidd]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
...actually I agreed with everything but there's one poind I think you're missing.
Yeah, its hard to get all the little nuances in one little short thread...
Now, if you just bought my book...You would find several chapters devoted to the life cycle of the nitrosomas and nitrobactor bacteria...Compleate with charts graphs and little pull out slide rule to determine exactly where you are in the cycle at any given time...
J/K Folks....Theres no book...

I was just "generalizing" cycle time to when the bacteria are at a sustainable and balanced level compared to the initial "spiked" levels...
Your point of "0.5" ppm ammonia as "safe" is relative to "when" the reading is taken...0.5ppm 4 hrs after adding a dead shrimp is "different" than 0.5 ppm 2 weeks later...
That's why it's important to continually test and "monitor" levels to watch for a rise and fall in levels (spike) or to see if they remain at a constant low indicating a sustainable population level...
AudiSteve...NitrItes are also toxic to lifeforms at high levels...
What to do...? Wait it out...and partial water change...the "effect" should be the same....
The quick rise and fall of your ammonia level indicates you probably had a good "starter" level of nitrosomas bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrIte and they multiplied rapidly...the same will 'probably" happen with the nitrobactor bacteria, which will convert the nitrIte to nitrAte...
This is one of the "benefits" of using Live Rock (cured or uncured) to cycle a tank..the the initial bacteria levels are introduced and able to multiply quickly and "balance" things out...
You are starting out with one Bazillion bacteria and it doesn't take long to get to ten bazillion...As opposed to starting out with an empty,sterile or "dead" tank with only a "few" bacteria in it...It just takes longer for them to multiply exponentially (1,2,4,16,256...) and get to ten bazillion...
Shawna...Don't feel bad for asking questions...(you are not "inturrupting")...if some of us stop posting at any given time, it could be we just went to bed...or the bathroom..or some other form of "reality"...

 

[bang guy]

Yep, I went to bed. You could probably tell from my spelling that I hit the keyboard with my forehead a couple of times.
What I have experienced is that the bacteria that eat Nitrite multiply a LOT faster than the bacteria that eat Ammonia.

 

[chris17]

to the experience......lol this is a good thread , expecially for begginers, and the experienced........ :happy: