ok just found out he has drained the tank is the rock dead

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by Scopus Tang
http:///forum/post/3225386
Ok, just to play devil's advocate - can any of you tell me how an aquarium can possibly be sterile and can exist in a sterile environment? Bacterial spores are carried in the air, so unless you somehow completely sterilize everything going into the tank and can sterilize the air around you tank, its not going to be sterile. Kind of makes the whole "sterile" argument pointless doesn't it?
Joe was the one who put words in my mouth and made mention of a sterile environment.

 

[chaseter]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3225383
I agree. However these were not the standards I placed. I made no mention of a sterile environment. I made mention of an environment in which the necessary bacteria is ubiquitous. This bacteria will culture on the once-sterile rock.
But it isn't bacteria that is natural to the oceanic environment.

 

[meowzer]

Wow

 

[garick]

If its actual live rock and not base rock that has been scrubbed/cleaned and never had anything growing on it. There is little hope that it will be anything but stinky or have SOMETHING that will decay. The coraline for instance will decay and put off proteins, any dead things that are dried up will get moist again and put off proteins.
If it was actual live rock with junk on it and you didn't scrub it clean. It probably has nasties on it that will rot and decay especially if its been kept in a plastic sealed container.'
if you want coraline, yes. If you want normal bacteria. No.
I mean honestly. If a tank has to have rock or items with bacteria on it from a place of origin to get bacteria on it to cycle the tank. How can a cycle start in a fresh water tank with no bacteria placed in it?

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by chaseter
http:///forum/post/3225393
But it isn't bacteria that is natural to the oceanic environment.
YES! Hallelujah yes the bacteria that is necessary for the nitrogen cycle is in fact found in our environment. Try cycling a tank without adding a source of seed bacteria. It works. I promise.
Now, live rock is great for other types of bacteria and several great microorganisms. However none are vital to the nitrogen cycle.
It's ubiquitous people.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3225404
YES! Hallelujah yes the bacteria that is necessary for the nitrogen cycle is in fact found in our environment. Try cycling a tank without adding a source of seed bacteria. It works. I promise.
Now, live rock is great for other types of bacteria and several great microorganisms. However none are vital to the nitrogen cycle.
It's ubiquitous people.
Wow I cannot believe I am witnessing the rewriting of all the marine aquarium books I have ever read. No more live rock no more uncured rock no more damsels and dare I say it, no more cocktail shrimp. Just fill your tank with water. Get a piece of rock sterilize it we don’t want any nasty’s in our tank dump the rock in and wait for a cycle to begin. Wow it’s ubiquitous

 

[stanlalee]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3225469
Wow I cannot believe I am witnessing the rewriting of all the marine aquarium books I have ever read. No more live rock no more uncured rock no more damsels and dare I say it, no more cocktail shrimp. Just fill your tank with water. Get a piece of rock sterilize it we don’t want any nasty’s in our tank dump the rock in and wait for a cycle to begin. Wow it’s ubiquitous

I dont think anybody is saying you can start nitrification without an ammonia source but you certaintly dont need to source anything marine related.
"if its dead there is no waste dead is dead devoid of life. any type of life"
this is kind of playing semantics dont you think. dead rock has never meant void of life any more than live rock means the calcium carbonate structure itself is a living organism. I think its pretty clear dead in this context refers to being free of live eukaryotes (excluding spore states) not void of ANYTHING classified as an organism (yes I've done some googling lol

). anyhow I tend to believe liverock in a tank drained a month ago has plenty of decaying organic matter (dead eukaryotes) left to start a cycle.

 

[scheri11]

Thanks to all who wrote. I smelled it tonight and it smell like wet mold I think I even saw some fuzz on it. It is all just sitting in the tank and drying. I have learn a lot and I just started on this site and I just love it.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3225469
Get a piece of rock sterilize it we don’t want any nasty’s in our tank dump the rock in and wait for a cycle to begin.
I would still put up the 'nastys' to get the other stuff...

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3225469
Wow I cannot believe I am witnessing the rewriting of all the marine aquarium books I have ever read. No more live rock no more uncured rock no more damsels and dare I say it, no more cocktail shrimp. Just fill your tank with water. Get a piece of rock sterilize it we don’t want any nasty’s in our tank dump the rock in and wait for a cycle to begin. Wow it’s ubiquitous

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3225330
This bacteria is ubiquitous. I don't give a crap if the rock is completely sterile, a cycle will start.
The bacteria will find its way in. So long as there is a food source, it will flourish.
Why do you choose to ignore parts of my posts, put words in my mouth, and flaunt your own ignorance in my face?

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3225572
I would still put up the 'nastys' to get the other stuff...
Live rock is not necessary for the nitrogen cycle (the point I'm making) but it is still necessary for other applications such as microfauna, diatoms, sponges, coralline, and all of the microorganisms we take for granted.

 

[florida joe]

If the rock started with no bacteria on it (ie sterile), it could still obtain the necessary bacteria from the outside environment (again, it's ubiquitous) and flourish.
The NH3- ions that are necessary for the bacteria to thrive are given off by the dead or decaying organisms on the rock.
these are you exact words. now explain to my ignorance how a sterile rock can supply organics to feed nitrification bacteria

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3225676
these are you exact words. now explain to my ignorance how a sterile rock can supply organics to feed nitrification bacteria
NH3- isn't living...as my post explains. Dead and decaying (yes once living) matter that gives off ammonia is the organic material that could be found on said hypothetical sterile rock.
Before I go further let me elaborate on one simple fact. Organic material from the rock is not necessary.
For example, urine is sterile. We all know that. Urine also contains ammonia. Something sterile CAN be a source of ammonia. Everybody should know that.
I don't understand why you're dwelling on this point, it is irrelevant how the waste gets into the tank, that is beside the point.
A rock can be full of dead organisms and still be sterile.

My point (and I'll say it yet again) is that the bacteria necessary for the nitrogen cycle in our aquariums can be found in the atmosphere and doesn't have to be introduced via live rock.

Maybe it will stick this time and you won't blame me for saying things I never said.

 

[kraylen]

Angry teenager likes to argue.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by Kraylen
http:///forum/post/3225720
Angry teenager likes to argue.
Yes, but only when I'm right.

 

[florida joe]

Let me try to explain this as simply as I can. The OP was told that Dead rock can be used to cycle a tank.My Opinion was that if it was truly dead it would not facilitate nitrifying bacteria growth. Your response was the necessary bacteria are ubiquitous. Anything with dissolved organic waste will start a cycle. This is absolutely true BUT without the presence of organic breakdown there can be no feeding of the nitrifying bacteria. My statement was simply that if there was nothing to feed the bacteria there can be no cycling of organics because there are no organics to cycle then you go on to say If the rock started with no bacteria on it (ie sterile), it could still obtain the necessary bacteria from the outside environment (again, it's ubiquitous) Again we are not talking about nitrifying bacteria we are talking about the necessary food source for the growth of nitrifying bacteria. then you sayMy definition of sterile was simply "without life." Just because there is no life doesn't mean that life cannot inhabit the area...by my definition.

Should we not use a universal definition?
then you say
Then you say YES! Hallelujah yes the bacteria that is necessary for the nitrogen cycle is in fact found in our environment. Try cycling a tank without adding a source of seed bacteria. It works. I promise
But AGAIN the discussion is not can be have nitrification in our tanks without introducing it via rock but can dead rock supply food for the nitrifying bacteria
Then
Live rock is not necessary for the nitrogen cycle
No one said it was. Then
For example, urine is sterile. We all know that. Urine also contains ammonia. Something sterile CAN be a source of ammonia. Everybody should know that.
But we are not talking about urine now are we. finally
My point (and I'll say it yet again) is that the bacteria necessary for the nitrogen cycle in our aquariums can be found in the atmosphere and doesn't have to be introduced via live rock
And again I say
We are not talking about the bacteria necessary for nitrification we are talking about the availability of ammonia to facilitate its growth on dead rock
BTW I love the red

 

[pezenfuego]

It's apparent that we're arguing for no damn good reason.
I'll make a list. We'll agree. It'll be over. Good plan?
1. Bacteria necessary for a nitrogen cycle is ubiquitous and does not have to come from live rock.
2. Live rock that is sterile isn't live rock at all.
3. Bacteria necessary for the nitrogen cycle needs to feed on a source of ammonia that is most commonly derived from organic waste.
4. Organic waste is present on live rock.
5. The OP doesn't have live rock in that the life on it is not what is desired by saltwater hobbyists (ie mold).
Unless you disagree with part of this, we don't have an argument at all.

 

[florida joe]

I believe we have reached Detente

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3225774
I believe we have reached Detente
Nobody wins internet arguments. If you participate, you lose lol.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/3225794
Nobody wins internet arguments. If you participate, you lose lol.
I prefer to call it spirited debate and i think if nothing else it causes observers to at least think about the subject