Ok, political thought..only read if interested

darthtang aw

Active Member
Two things struck me today.
First and foremost. I am tired of hearing about troops not given body armor. but which is more important, body armor or bullets and guns?
If we pull out of Iraq will the insurgents and Al QUeda just hop over to Afghanistan and start the same thing up there? Would we pull out Afghanistan if our death total hit over 3000? Or would the democrats back staying there?
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Bullets and guns are more important... Democrats are fools thinking that it is a good idea to pull out right now..First we have to Stabalize Afghanistan, just like cycling a tank
 

aandwrobert

Member
If we pull out of Iraq Al Queda will not in my opinon go to afganistian the fight in Irag and afganistian is 2 different things
Iraq-oil aka money
afganistian-power
Al Queda would not want to go to afganistian do to the smaller suport group and the difficult terrian
 

aztec reef

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
If we pull out of Iraq Al Queda will not in my opinon go to afganistian the fight in Irag and afganistian is 2 different things
Iraq-oil aka money
afganistian-power
Al Queda would not want to go to afganistian do to the smaller suport group and the difficult terrian

I see it as killing two birds with one stone... Would you still feel good if the War was just in Afghanistan and let Iraq alone?.. Would you feel better leaving Sadamm and his two sons there? There's Insurgents and Radicals in both places..
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
If we pull out of Iraq Al Queda will not in my opinon go to afganistian the fight in Irag and afganistian is 2 different things
Iraq-oil aka money
afganistian-power
Al Queda would not want to go to afganistian do to the smaller suport group and the difficult terrian

Bin laden and his Muhajideem (sp?) already fought in Afghanistan for ten years against the U.S.S.R.....before they became Al Qaeda...so why wouldn't they fight there?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
.....
Iraq-oil aka money....
I believe I read Iraq is currently producing more oil than ever in the last 5 years. So how come I'm paying more for gas than ever?
I've screamed this 1,000 times... Iraq was NOT about oil. We pushed to sanction Iraq to no be able to export oil during Saddam's reign....
Originally Posted by aandwrobert

.....
afganistian-power
Al Queda would not want to go to afganistian do to the smaller suport group and the difficult terrian
Huh?Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan to begin with..... they are still there. That remark totally threw me.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
We need more politicians to study history.
We were attacked at Pearl Harbor because the Japanese thought they could hit us hard and make us rethink our Pacific policies.
The Battle of the Bulge was designed to inflict casualties on the Americans and split forces to demoralize and try to get better terms for surender (some German officers hoped).
Korea (and China); we backed down. Look what it has gotten us today. President Clinton's administration tried to deal with the nutcase and we've now learned they were violating there agreement with us. China is an emerging threat that should have been dealt with in the 50's along with Korea.
Vietnam; Viet Kong officers has told us the Tet Offensive was never designed to beat our military. It was to inflict casualties and break the moral at back home. It worked. We caved. Millions of people in SE Asia died as a result of our withdrawing.
Lebanon 1983. Terrorists blew up our Marine Barracks, we retreated. Area is still in chaos today.
Desert Storm; We caved to world opinion and didn't finish the job.
Clinton years.. terrorists hit us in Somalia, bombed embassies in Kenya, attacked USS Cole, Bombed World Trade Center, attacked us in Saudi Arabia and I think I'm forgetting a few. Each time we did little to NOTHING in response.
9-11; For the first time since WWII our President responded by saying "you're either with us or against us...". Al Qaeda and the Taliban were stunned by our military response. Study history. That's how you win a war. in WWII we didn't send in reporters to interview grieving families of burned out houses in Berlin and Tokyo. They were the enemy. We bombed the junk out of them until they surrendered unconditionally. Now our military is second guessed every time a soldier pulls the trigger. Look at the recent abduction of the British sailors by Iran. Can you imagine what Churchill would have done if he were Prime Minister today? The media and spineless politicians are crippling our military. Sadr City in Baghdad is like "base" during a game of tag. The insurgents are using it to camp in and launch attacks out of at will. The fact that we haven't reduced that suburb to a giant sandbox is pitiful.
In 5 years we have not had an attack on US soil. Yet the Democrats keep saying our policies are creating more terrorists and making the world hate us more. Hate us more than wanting to destroy us? How is that possible?
If we pull out of Iraq a bloodbath will insue that will make the killing fields of Cambodia and the Death Camps of Poland look like amusement parks. Who will we blame then? Do you really think Congressman Murtha will step up and say "my bad?" Nope... the spin will be "we should have never gone there in the first place". I mean, sure Saddam was in violation of the peace agreement he signed after Desert Storm (you know, that little ordeal where Saddam, without any provocation, attacked his neighbor and tried to annex them (if it sounds familiar it's because that's how Hitler started)) Sure Iraqi's had engaged allied war planes thousands of times in the No Fly Zones. Sure Saddam tried to wipe out the Kurds. Sure Saddam was starving his own people to build back his military and build extravagant palaces. Sure he was obstructing UN monitors.. still that can all be blamed on us....
Unless, 10 years from now, we want the streets of NY to look like today's Baghdad we need to keep on the offensive.
 

aandwrobert

Member
yes Iraq was about oil do we mess with north korea no! because theres no money in north korea and they have nukes but did Iraq have nukes no! so what does that say to other dictator states...get nukes and the US wont invade you. and that just doesnt help create world peace
and as far as Al queda not going to afganistian becuase they lost suport of the people thats why. for many reasons 1st they blew up the sandstone statue of budda they killed to many people and blew kabel.
Saddam was a bad person I dont disagree but he didnt allow a civil war to start like what happened when we took over
as far as terrorist stop having bases and army troops in OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
We need more politicians to study history.
We were attacked at Pearl Harbor because the Japanese thought they could hit us hard and make us rethink our Pacific policies.
The Battle of the Bulge was designed to inflict casualties on the Americans and split forces to demoralize and try to get better terms for surender (some German officers hoped).
Korea (and China); we backed down. Look what it has gotten us today. President Clinton's administration tried to deal with the nutcase and we've now learned they were violating there agreement with us. China is an emerging threat that should have been dealt with in the 50's along with Korea.
Vietnam; Viet Kong officers has told us the Tet Offensive was never designed to beat our military. It was to inflict casualties and break the moral at back home. It worked. We caved. Millions of people in SE Asia died as a result of our withdrawing.
Lebanon 1983. Terrorists blew up our Marine Barracks, we retreated. Area is still in chaos today.
Desert Storm; We caved to world opinion and didn't finish the job.
Clinton years.. terrorists hit us in Somalia, bombed embassies in Kenya, attacked USS Cole, Bombed World Trade Center, attacked us in Saudi Arabia and I think I'm forgetting a few. Each time we did little to NOTHING in response.
9-11; For the first time since WWII our President responded by saying "you're either with us or against us...". Al Qaeda and the Taliban were stunned by our military response. Study history. That's how you win a war. in WWII we didn't send in reporters to interview grieving families of burned out houses in Berlin and Tokyo. They were the enemy. We bombed the junk out of them until they surrendered unconditionally. Now our military is second guessed every time a soldier pulls the trigger. Look at the recent abduction of the British sailors by Iran. Can you imagine what Churchill would have done if he were Prime Minister today? The media and spineless politicians are crippling our military. Sadr City in Baghdad is like "base" during a game of tag. The insurgents are using it to camp in and launch attacks out of at will. The fact that we haven't reduced that suburb to a giant sandbox is pitiful.
In 5 years we have not had an attack on US soil. Yet the Democrats keep saying our policies are creating more terrorists and making the world hate us more. Hate us more than wanting to destroy us? How is that possible?
If we pull out of Iraq a bloodbath will insue that will make the killing fields of Cambodia and the Death Camps of Poland look like amusement parks. Who will we blame then? Do you really think Congressman Murtha will step up and say "my bad?" Nope... the spin will be "we should have never gone there in the first place". I mean, sure Saddam was in violation of the peace agreement he signed after Desert Storm (you know, that little ordeal where Saddam, without any provocation, attacked his neighbor and tried to annex them (if it sounds familiar it's because that's how Hitler started)) Sure Iraqi's had engaged allied war planes thousands of times in the No Fly Zones. Sure Saddam tried to wipe out the Kurds. Sure Saddam was starving his own people to build back his military and build extravagant palaces. Sure he was obstructing UN monitors.. still that can all be blamed on us....
Unless, 10 years from now, we want the streets of NY to look like today's Baghdad we need to keep on the offensive.
agreed
 

seasalt101

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
yes Iraq was about oil do we mess with north korea no! because theres no money in north korea and they have nukes but did Iraq have nukes no! so what does that say to other dictator states...get nukes and the US wont invade you. and that just doesnt help create world peace
and as far as Al queda not going to afganistian becuase they lost suport of the people thats why. for many reasons 1st they blew up the sandstone statue of budda they killed to many people and blew kabel.
Saddam was a bad person I dont disagree but he didnt allow a civil war to start like what happened when we took over
as far as terrorist stop having bases and army troops in OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you sound like you would lay over and give the terrorist just what they want ,here you go mr bin laden sir you have no back bone no guts and no patriotism how long do you think the terrorist would wait to attack us if we left the middle east. and clinton is the one to help north korea get nuclear weapons, now look what has happened over their,
it is people like you that have turned this great country into the hated nation it is today, get some guts and stand up for what is right...tobin
 

aandwrobert

Member
what is right is not what this is about as far as pulling out of iraq it cant be done we're tangled up to much
the war in iraq was a pointless greedy act on part of bush but you voted for him not I (well being only 13 I didnt vote for anyone but you get the point)
as far as not having a backbone lets see josh my cousin is an army ranger and is going back on his 4th tour of duty and has 1 kid who is 9 months old
do you have any family in iraq or afganistian its easy to tell other people to go and die not so easy to go your self
Rob the only hippie in greenville
 

seasalt101

Active Member
uummm yeah we do have family/friends over there, and seeing as how you are only 13 that explains your lack of conviction...you were only 7 on 9/11 i was in he military in the 80's if i was young enough to serve i would be there myself, i want a safe country for my kids, if we do not do this now when? the next time or the time after that? you are a kid you do not understand the complexities of war, or have a full grasp of the situation, and i am willing to bet the family members you have that are serving are glad to do so, and i thank them for their service. if it were up to me which is probably a good thing i would level every insurgient town and i would get the press out of there so the terrorist would not know our every move but that's just me...tobin
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
yes Iraq was about oil do we mess with north korea no! because theres no money in north korea and they have nukes but did Iraq have nukes no! so what does that say to other dictator states...get nukes and the US wont invade you. and that just doesnt help create world peace
and as far as Al queda not going to afganistian becuase they lost suport of the people thats why. for many reasons 1st they blew up the sandstone statue of budda they killed to many people and blew kabel.
Saddam was a bad person I dont disagree but he didnt allow a civil war to start like what happened when we took over
as far as terrorist stop having bases and army troops in OTHER COUNTRIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I always enjoy how people can keep saying "iraq for oil" and yet ignore the facts... 1. Iraq is exporting more oil today. 2. We are paying more for gasoline...
There are a couple of other mistakes in your post...
N Korea successfully detonated a nuclear device in 03. We had already invaded Afghanistan and were attacking Iraq at that time. So you can't really say we didn't attack Korea because of nukes. We do not attack Korea because they are bordered with China and South Korea. They aren't going anywhere. Iraq, on the other hand, routinely attacked it's neighbors.
Again.... Al Qaeda IS IN AFGHANISTAN..... That's where this began.... NATO forces just killed a big Al Qaeda officer a couple of weeks ago in Afghanistan. Quit saying they aren't going to go back there. THEY ALREADY ARE THERE.
Al Qaeda did not blow up any statues. That was the Taliban.
The rest of your post was too confusing to read.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
what is right is not what this is about as far as pulling out of iraq it cant be done we're tangled up to much
the war in iraq was a pointless greedy act on part of bush but you voted for him not I (well being only 13 I didnt vote for anyone but you get the point)
as far as not having a backbone lets see josh my cousin is an army ranger and is going back on his 4th tour of duty and has 1 kid who is 9 months old
do you have any family in iraq or afganistian its easy to tell other people to go and die not so easy to go your self
Rob the only hippie in greenville
I wonder what your cousin would say about your posts? Seems he doesn't feel the same way if he is going back for his fourth tour. I have friends, family and former students in Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan.
what exactly did President Bush gain from going to war in Iraq?
Aandwrobert, you're repeating (badly I'm afraid) left wing nonsense and writing posts full of factual errors. Your viewpoints are welcome, but you need to think them through for yourself.
Silly people say we attacked Iraq for oil. The facts clearly show otherwise. Now, we did attack Iraq partly because of their location. We couldn't allow Saddam to continue to threaten the region (because of oil, Israel, Suez Canal, etc.)
Aand, do you realize that Saddam was warned repeatedly that we were going to attack? Do you realize that all Saddam had to do was allow UN inspectors to inspect his facilities and we wouldn't have attacked? Do you realize that Iraq attacked Kuwait in 1990? He was defeated, Part of his surrender was to allow allied aircraft to patrol over the north and south of Iraq. Did you know he fired at and targetted our aircraft repeatedly?
Many of us would say the first time a government targets or fires at a US serviceman that constitutes an act of war...
 

mike22cha

Active Member
I'm also to young to vote. I'm neither liberal, (democrat)nor conservative(republican). I got the most liberal dad anyone could imagine, and go to the most conservative school you could imagine. It is a private school which the majority republican supporters(including students) is 99.9%. I being the .1%. I get the best and worst of both worlds.
It is hard for me to agree with republicans because I went to a class with a teacher who bash talked democrats and said that they were all athesists. He said the battle between Rep. and Dem. was a war between Satan and God. It angers me becuase they would consider me democrat and my dad's definetly a democrat, and we're both Christian, and he declares to my face without knowing it that I'm athesist. I would be more of a Republican if it weren't for that. (He also said Rock music was a communist plot to make America a sinful nation that would colapse so that commys could take over. No joke.)
But just some things I've noticed about the war and both sides:
1. Bush and Chenney have connections with big oil companies(I forgot the name) and Iraq has a lot of oil.
2. Democrats keep critizing Bush about going in when we're already in. We should make the most of what we got.
3. We went into war without support from the people. In WWII, we never battled in the streets of the Japenese citizens, who hated us, so that was never an issue, and we are fighting in the streets of some of the enemy's supporters, so I'd say this is a lot different than WWII, and we never really fought an army that is this small, and not a country where you could invade and then you'd win.
4. Were in and there's no easy way out of Iraq, but it will eventually have to be done, so which upcoming president has got the guts to take the critism and pull out of Iraq.
Just some input, I got to go otherwise I'd love to continue with this subject. When I get back I'll be on this thread again.
 

aandwrobert

Member
having a mom who is gulf war vet. I know ALOT about the gulfwar but they envaded a country SO WHAT!!! people are naturaly evil (I know its a quote from hobbes but I forgot the rest of it) and dictators are eviler but after we "saved" Kuwait we gave them the bill and now they are one of the poorest countries in the world.
and again we need to stop imperialism we have bases in 150 countries yes I know all I say is a little kids hippie crap but deal with it
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by MIKE22cha
I'm also to young to vote. I'm neither liberal, (democrat)nor conservative(republican). I got the most liberal dad anyone could imagine, and go to the most conservative school you could imagine. It is a private school which the majority republican supporters(including students) is 99.9%. I being the .1%. I get the best and worst of both worlds.
It is hard for me to agree with republicans because I went to a class with a teacher who bash talked democrats and said that they were all athesists. He said the battle between Rep. and Dem. was a war between Satan and God. It angers me becuase they would consider me democrat and my dad's definetly a democrat, and we're both Christian, and he declares to my face without knowing it that I'm athesist. I would be more of a Republican if it weren't for that. (He also said Rock music was a communist plot to make America a sinful nation that would colapse so that commys could take over. No joke.)
But just some things I've noticed about the war and both sides:
1. Bush and Chenney have connections with big oil companies(I forgot the name) and Iraq has a lot of oil.
2. Democrats keep critizing Bush about going in when we're already in. We should make the most of what we got.
3. We went into war without support from the people. In WWII, we never battled in the streets of the Japenese citizens, who hated us, so that was never an issue, and we are fighting in the streets of some of the enemy's supporters, so I'd say this is a lot different than WWII, and we never really fought an army that is this small, and not a country where you could invade and then you'd win.
4. Were in and there's no easy way out of Iraq, but it will eventually have to be done, so which upcoming president has got the guts to take the critism and pull out of Iraq.
Just some input, I got to go otherwise I'd love to continue with this subject. When I get back I'll be on this thread again.
I don't really understanding your point about being more of a Republican if you didn't have a nutty teacher. That sounds like you're basing your opinions on just being contrary to someone you don't like. That's a bad idea.
1. I suspect you mean Haliburton. Pr. Bush has ties to Major League Baseball; are we building a stadium in Baghdad?
2. Agreed... though it goes much farther then that. The Dems now loudly criticizing war voted to invade Iraq. President Clinton, in 1998 sent planes in Iraq to "attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons..." (His words)
3. False. The majority of people polled were for invading Iraq. Not that you should base invasions on polls... As for Japan (and Germany too) we occupied those countries for many, many years after WWII. Remember, it took us over 4 years just to win WWII. Then we had troops stationed all over for years. The Iraq conflict is young by those comparisons.
4. Why do we have to leave? Why isn't victory an option?
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
having a mom who is gulf war vet. I know ALOT about the gulfwar but they envaded a country SO WHAT!!! people are naturaly evil (I know its a quote from hobbes but I forgot the rest of it) and dictators are eviler but after we "saved" Kuwait we gave them the bill and now they are one of the poorest countries in the world.
and again we need to stop imperialism we have bases in 150 countries yes I know all I say is a little kids hippie crap but deal with it
They invaded an ALLY... Should we not have allies? Should we turn our backs on aiding those who need it?
Kuwait is poor? Where the heck did you get that.... False. And we didn't send them the bill to make them poor. The fact that the retreating Iraqi army looted and burned Kuwait damaged their economy.
Stop Imperialism? Hehe, do you understand what Imperialism means? Study history and you'll learn what that means. I've been to the British Museum in London. I've seen the Rosetta Stone, Egyptian Mummies, and part of the Greek Parthenon there. Why? Because Britain were Imperialists. The Roman Empire were Imperialists. Japan in WWII tried to be, Germany tried to be, the list goes on and on.. The USA, is the only world superpower to ever NOT be imperialistic. We have bases all over the world, AT THE REQUEST of the people and governments. As far as I know, Cuba is the only country where we have an unwanted base.
Hippie "crap" as you say doesn't bother me. Uninformed and false crap (hippie or otherwise) does though. If you want to call the USA Imperialists I encourage you to learn what it means. Also, study how our "Isolationist" policies failed prior to WW1.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by aandwrobert
having a mom who is gulf war vet. I know ALOT about the gulfwar but they envaded a country SO WHAT!!! ....
I love this quote... So Iraq can invade a peaceful country, ---- and slaughter the people and loot the country and you are ok with it. But if we invade a country of an evil dictator and try to spread democracy you oppose it? That's interesting...
 

seasalt101

Active Member
just like he stated hippie crap, from someone who probably doesn't know what that is either, by the way i'm from northern california, and in my 40's i've been to haight ashbury the fillmore and all the other hippie hangouts just cause you have long hair does not make you a hippie, do you know who joan baez is, or who timothy leary are?...tobin
 
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