Old Tank Syndrome

flower

flower

Well-Known Member

 
 
I am fed up with nitrates; it’s driving me to tears. I have been doing DAILY water changes for nearly a month and my tests are still reading 20. I think I might have old tank syndrome, all articles say do the water changes, but it isn't working. I don’t have any ammonia but I do have constant nitrates and my PH will not go beyond 8.0 and it only stays at that because I buffer my RO water for top offs.

I am seriously considering purchasing the Aquariapure denitrator. It is vodka dosing but within a canister and it seems a bit safer. I am going to have to take out my rock and re work the rockscape since I will have to remove my urchin and maybe the Kole tang, because I won’t need that many algae dependent critters. The others are pretty good for eating algae sheets.

I might add some more live sand or maybe some of that Fiji mud. Also do a 50% water change while I’m at it. I have till the first when my money comes in..If anyone can come up with a better plan, let’s hear it.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
I hate to ask a dumb question...BECAUSE...I am sure you have done this
 
You have had your water checked elsewhere?????
 
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by meowzer http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309856
I hate to ask a dumb question...BECAUSE...I am sure you have done this
 
You have had your water checked elsewhere?????
 

 
No, but I do have three different water tests and thy all show the same readings. My tank is 6 years old, and everything I read about old tank syndrome matches my situation. If I don't buffer my RO top off water my PH plunges.
 
meowzer

meowzer

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309861

 
No, but I do have three different water tests and thy all show the same readings. My tank is 6 years old, and everything I read about old tank syndrome matches my situation. If I don't buffer my RO top off water my PH plunges.

So this is something to NOT look forward to :( I have never heard of old age syndrome in SW tanks

 
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
I've heard about the old tank deal, but don't buy it!!!!! There are a lot of things that can influence your PH. Are you running a DSB?
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309852

 
 
I am fed up with nitrates; it’s driving me to tears. I have been doing DAILY water changes for nearly a month and my tests are still reading 20. I think I might have old tank syndrome, all articles say do the water changes, but it isn't working. I don’t have any ammonia but I do have constant nitrates and my PH will not go beyond 8.0 and it only stays at that because I buffer my RO water for top offs.

I am seriously considering purchasing the Aquariapure denitrator. It is vodka dosing but within a canister and it seems a bit safer. I am going to have to take out my rock and re work the rockscape since I will have to remove my urchin and maybe the Kole tang, because I won’t need that many algae dependent critters. The others are pretty good for eating algae sheets.

I might add some more live sand or maybe some of that Fiji mud. Also do a 50% water change while I’m at it. I have till the first when my money comes in..If anyone can come up with a better plan, let’s hear it.
when did it become an issue with your PH? You mention your sandbed briefly.... How deep is it? Have you ever reseeded your sand bed? At some point your sandbed would/will become full and not able to complete it's purpose.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309872
when did it become an issue with your PH? You mention your sandbed briefly.... How deep is it? Have you ever reseeded your sand bed? At some point your sandbed would/will become full and not able to complete it's purpose.

 
 
 
I have a sand sifting goby, one of my favorite fish, there is nothing alive in that sand. Over the years he has cleaned it out. He eats Mysis shrimp and nibbles at algae sheets so he doesn’t starve.
 
I tried to make an in the tank refugium but it just isn’t big enough for the 90g. I thought daily water changes would take care of it, but the nitrates remain at 20.
 
I had a PH issue some time ago, someone on this site (Spanko I THINK) after much debate for not buffering PH...said I should buffer the alkalinity in the top off water to stabilize the PH. I did and it worked.
 
Since the daily water changes PH won’t go beyond 8.0, I like it at 8.2 / 8.3 …I think the IO reef crystals I use for my changes has a PH at 8.0..I have not tested it but it’s the only explanation I can think of.
 
I have been more concerned with nitrates since PH at 8.0 is in the “safe” zone. Spanko mentioned old tank syndrome...
 
When I Googled Old tank syndrome…I found this site..www.bestfish.com/oldtankhttp://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html.html I’m pretty sure I have this..it matches what is going on it my tank. Before I found this site I only did water changes once every 3 to 4 months and changed my canister filter seldom, maybe 2xs a year.
 
Have a look at the article and give me your opinion.
 
 
S

smartorl

Guest
Have you given any thought to the possibility that your canister may be the problem?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartorl http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309896
Have you given any thought to the possibility that your canister may be the problem?

 
 
How can that be if I change the carbon media every month and keep it clean? I have heard before that canisters can be nitrate factories, I looked into it...as I understood it, the carbon holds all kinds of unwanted toxins and releases nitrates if you leave it too long in the canister. The cure for that condition is to change the media regularly.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Flower the magically number of 8.2-8.3 is an ideal number doesn't mean every tank will run at that level.....
As far as the sandbed great on the sifting goby, but sandbeds do need maintenance and should be reseeded from time to time. The sand bed has probably lost it's ability to serve the purposes of nitrification and denitrification process that goes on within the sand bed. Without maintenance the sandbed will become packed and loose it's efficiency. How deep is the sandbed? What are you running for filtration as well?
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309890
 

 
 
 
I have a sand sifting goby, one of my favorite fish, there is nothing alive in that sand. Over the years he has cleaned it out. He eats Mysis shrimp and nibbles at algae sheets so he doesn’t starve.
 
I tried to make an in the tank refugium but it just isn’t big enough for the 90g. I thought daily water changes would take care of it, but the nitrates remain at 20.
 
I had a PH issue some time ago, someone on this site (Spanko I THINK) after much debate for not buffering PH...said I should buffer the alkalinity in the top off water to stabilize the PH. I did and it worked.
 
Since the daily water changes PH won’t go beyond 8.0, I like it at  8.2 / 8.3 …I think the IO reef crystals I use for my changes has a PH at 8.0..I have not tested it but it’s the only explanation I can think of.
 
I have been more concerned with nitrates since PH at 8.0 is in the “safe” zone. Spanko mentioned old tank syndrome...
 
When I Googled Old tank syndrome…I found this site..www.bestfish.com/oldtankhttp://www.bestfish.com/oldtank.html.html  I’m pretty sure I have this..it matches what is going on it my tank. Before I found this site I only did water changes once every 3 to 4 months and changed my canister filter seldom, maybe 2xs a year.
 
Have a look at the article and give me your opinion.
 
Henry had mentioned old tank syndrome!!!! What does it say about your sandbed? That is a big part of your biological filtration along with your LR. What has your maintenance consisted of for your sandbed other than the sifting goby?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member

 
 
In order for a DSB to work to take out nitrates, it must be undisturbed. The bacteria that grows in there is different than those that grow on the rocks and break down ammonia to nitrites then nitrates…The DSB has fauna in it the goby sifts away, the good bacteria that breaks down nitrates are not there to change it to harmless gas. So the DSB is useless in my tank. Some areas are 0 down to the glass and other places it may be 6 inches deep ,,but that changes as the goby re-arranges the sand daily.
 
I did test my CHANGE water and as suspected the PH is the same
PH is 8.0.
Nitrates are 0
KH is 8 = 143.2
Cal seemed high at 520
 
When I tested my TANK water
PH = 8.0
Cal = 400 This number is right on the low edge of acceptable.
KH = 8 (143.2)
Nitrates today = 10
 
 
 


In a well maintained tank, old tank syndrome is no problem, my tank was not always well maintained. According to the article I found everything that was ever in the tank is still there somewhere because it's a closed system.

Since the natural breakdown of nitrate to harmless gas is not there. I was thinking of the denitrator. That gizmo is kind of a "safe" vodka dosing method and it will take away every bit of algae from the tank. I don't want the urchin to starve, and the kole is only in the tank as part of my algae CUC. I may also get rid of the lawnmower Blenny, but I like him almost as much as the goby. The LMB eats algae sheets and that would become his only food source, I may let him go to a happier home.
.
 
scopus tang

scopus tang

Active Member
Ok, lets play devil's advocate here - lets say you do have "Old Tank Syndrome", according the article you referenced, this syndrome appears in tanks that have not been properly maintained over the long haul. You admit that prior to joining the site you didn't do regular water changes, nor did you keep up on your canister filter. You also state that you have a fish that is constantly and continually scouring the sandbed for anything it can find to eat, so your sandbed is in effect dead. Your issue is nitrates, not ammonia - the article states that once the tank reaches a certain low pH, it will stabilize and begin converting the pH to ammonia and that forcing the tank to return to a high pH (which would be your stated pH of 8), the tank will invariably crash. Now has your tank crashed?
 
If not, I'm not sure that we can continue to assume that your tank is suffering from "Old Tank Syndrome". Certainly we can agree that your tank is suffering from nitrate levels. Regardless, the treatment of choice is water changes - you've been doing daily water changes in what amount? Try increasing the amount of water you are changing out at any given time. Simple math and logic states that the concentration must come down by dilution. Perhaps two water changes a day until nitrate levels are at the level you desire - one morning and one evening.
 
I assume you are familiar with the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle. If your tank has nitrate, it is coming from ammonia that is being created somewhere in your system. The true root of your problem, regardless of the "syndrome" or not, is the amount of ammonia that is being produced or has becomed stockpiled in the aquarium. It seems to me that determining that source and eliminating the problem at the source rather than trying to treat the symptoms is a much better solution. Perhaps it is time to trade that sand-sifting fish in and allow a live sandbed to develope in your system. Perhaps the addition of a hang on back refugium or a deepsand bed, or even more LR too the system is in order as well.
 
Just my $.02 worth
 
gemmy

gemmy

Active Member
Flower, why not give this a shot? You might want to use a cheap HOB filter rated for gallons and fill it with the product and try it for a month. Just a thought...

 
 
Product Description
denitrate™ is an economical, natural, porous material with a pore distribution and geometry that promotes both aerobic nitrification within the first few millimeters of depth and anaerobic denitrification at the core. The material has a high surface area and supports a high density of bacteria. Although de nitrate™ has capacity to trap nitrate, this, as with other nitrate retaining materials, such as certain zeolites and synthetic resins, is quite limited and the primary mechanism of nitrate removal is anaerobic.
Sizes: 100 mL 250 mL, 500 mL, 1 L, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L, 100 L
Why It's Different
“Live” rocks or reef rocks remove nitrate by anaerobic denitrification. de nitrate™ removes nitrate by the same process. Efficiency is magnified several folds by forcing the water to filter through the porous de nitrate™. As with reef rock, anaerobic conditions are achieved by the porosity and the depletion of oxygen by the aerobic process at the surface. Excessive flow rates should, therefore, be avoided, as they may impede development of an adequate anaerobic environment to support denitrifying bacteria.
de nitrate™ is also an excellent media for aerobic nitrification and it makes an ideal biological filter in drip trays, canister filters, sumps, or even box filters. At high flow rates (greater than 100 US gallons per hour), it will function solely as an aerobic filter. At slow flow rates (less than 50 US gallons per hour), it will function as both an aerobic filter and an anaerobic denitrifying filter.
 
acrylic51

acrylic51

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Scopus Tang http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309933
Ok, lets play devil's advocate here - lets say you do have "Old Tank Syndrome", according the article you referenced, this syndrome appears in tanks that have not been properly maintained over the long haul. You admit that prior to joining the site you didn't do regular water changes, nor did you keep up on your canister filter. You also state that you have a fish that is constantly and continually scouring the sandbed for anything it can find to eat, so your sandbed is in effect dead. Your issue is nitrates, not ammonia - the article states that once the tank reaches a certain low pH, it will stabilize and begin converting the pH to ammonia and that forcing the tank to return to a high pH (which would be your stated pH of 8), the tank will invariably crash. Now has your tank crashed?
 
If not, I'm not sure that we can continue to assume that your tank is suffering from "Old Tank Syndrome". Certainly we can agree that your tank is suffering from nitrate levels. Regardless, the treatment of choice is water changes - you've been doing daily water changes in what amount? Try increasing the amount of water you are changing out at any given time. Simple math and logic states that the concentration must come down by dilution. Perhaps two water changes a day until nitrate levels are at the level you desire - one morning and one evening.
 
I assume you are familiar with the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate cycle. If your tank has nitrate, it is coming from ammonia that is being created somewhere in your system. The true root of your problem, regardless of the "syndrome" or not, is the amount of ammonia that is being produced or has becomed stockpiled in the aquarium. It seems to me that determining that source and eliminating the problem at the source rather than trying to treat the symptoms is a much better solution. Perhaps it is time to trade that sand-sifting fish in and allow a live sandbed to develope in your system. Perhaps the addition of a hang on back refugium or a deepsand bed, or even more LR too the system is in order as well.
 
Just my $.02 worth
Agree!!!!! The key is water changes (dilutio is the solution). The sandbed should be reseeded as well. The theory or concept of needing a DSB to keep a good tank is incorrect. A SSB as deep as 1" can handle the load. All sandbeds regardless of depth do need maintenance. That again is key and should be researched for future reference. Awhile back(years ago) we did thermos trades here.... Again that is/was the intent or purpose of that. To keep the sandbeds live and thriving.
A later post of some sort of media IMHO isn't the fix or cure. That would do nothing more than mask the issue at hand.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemmy http:///forum/thread/380319/old-tank-syndrome#post_3309934
Flower, why not give this a shot? You might want to use a cheap HOB filter rated for gallons and fill it with the product and try it for a month. Just a thought...

 
 
Product Description
denitrate™ is an economical, natural, porous material with a pore distribution and geometry that promotes both aerobic nitrification within the first few millimeters of depth and anaerobic denitrification at the core. The material has a high surface area and supports a high density of bacteria. Although de nitrate™ has capacity to trap nitrate, this, as with other nitrate retaining materials, such as certain zeolites and synthetic resins, is quite limited and the primary mechanism of nitrate removal is anaerobic.
Sizes: 100 mL 250 mL, 500 mL, 1 L, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L, 100 L
Why It's Different
“Live” rocks or reef rocks remove nitrate by anaerobic denitrification. de nitrate™ removes nitrate by the same process. Efficiency is magnified several folds by forcing the water to filter through the porous de nitrate™. As with reef rock, anaerobic conditions are achieved by the porosity and the depletion of oxygen by the aerobic process at the surface. Excessive flow rates should, therefore, be avoided, as they may impede development of an adequate anaerobic environment to support denitrifying bacteria.
de nitrate™ is also an excellent media for aerobic nitrification and it makes an ideal biological filter in drip trays, canister filters, sumps, or even box filters. At high flow rates (greater than 100 US gallons per hour), it will function solely as an aerobic filter. At slow flow rates (less than 50 US gallons per hour), it will function as both an aerobic filter and an anaerobic denitrifying filter.

 
This stuff says feshwater tanks only, I see it in the LFS all the time.
 
Bang Guy,
You make sense but what can cause such high constant amonia to be converted to nitrates? This is a 90g tank. I could add more rock. OH I hate the thought, I know what critters live in what I have. I don't think I have over stocked, (8 fish) and I only feed the fish one thawed out rinsed cube of Mysis shrimp a day. Every other day I add an algae sheet, the urchin is leaving very little for the tangs and dwarf angel. Nothing has died, nothing is rotting, I don't have an algae problem or phosphates.
 
I'm running two caniter filters, I could, and have considered changing to a Rapids Pro wet/dry canister type filter...it is either that or the denitrator. Do you think changing the filter would help?
 
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