valencia71
New Member
for how long you left your lights on every day? I hear to many hours on arent good for your fish.
Ongoing saga: all fish die in days
- Thread starter mikeyfishy
- Start date
mikeyfishy
Member
Thanks again. To answer the pending questions...
I feed my fish tetramin flakes with some crushed crab. They've all eaten it, but of course, they only eat for a couple of days and when they start getting stressed they'll stop eating. When vaccuming, I normally just touch the surface of the sand to get any loose matter. The last time I did it, I did a deep vacuuming and a 50% water change just out of desperation. My only remaining fish (foxface) is still alive but its breathing is labored and doesn't look too good. It, however, has survived longer than any of the prior fish as it is going on 9 days now.
My protein skimmer seems to get very little dark water in it. Maybe 1/4 inch in the cup in a week and it is set optimally per the instructions. It's one of the good ones that creates a vortex in the chamber and you adjust with the little bleed valve. I monitor ammonia/nitrites on a daily basis and have never seen a spike in either one. I use the master test kit and I also have one of the little ammonia detectors hanging in the tank but I don't depend on just one test so I keep testing with the master test kit just to be sure and I never see a problem. I use a professional bulb tester to test salinity. I don't add any additives when changing water as I use the RO water. When I was using tap water, I only added a dechlorinator. Using tap versus RO water doesn't seem to make any difference, but I've used exclusively RO water for the past month.
I also never change/rinse both filters at the same time, but I don't think that's an issue anyway because I never see an ammonia/nitrite spike. I think the theory of an unknown toxin is the best one, but I'm at a loss as to what to do about that or where to look. With the 40 lb of live sand and ~10 pounds of live rock, I didn't think I'd need to add any more of that. Plus, again, with no ammonia spikes, that should mean that I have enough LR/LS for the bioload. No?
Oh, and I have the lights on 15 hours each day, just because that's the time that the room is used by people. Should I cut back?
Mike
I feed my fish tetramin flakes with some crushed crab. They've all eaten it, but of course, they only eat for a couple of days and when they start getting stressed they'll stop eating. When vaccuming, I normally just touch the surface of the sand to get any loose matter. The last time I did it, I did a deep vacuuming and a 50% water change just out of desperation. My only remaining fish (foxface) is still alive but its breathing is labored and doesn't look too good. It, however, has survived longer than any of the prior fish as it is going on 9 days now.
My protein skimmer seems to get very little dark water in it. Maybe 1/4 inch in the cup in a week and it is set optimally per the instructions. It's one of the good ones that creates a vortex in the chamber and you adjust with the little bleed valve. I monitor ammonia/nitrites on a daily basis and have never seen a spike in either one. I use the master test kit and I also have one of the little ammonia detectors hanging in the tank but I don't depend on just one test so I keep testing with the master test kit just to be sure and I never see a problem. I use a professional bulb tester to test salinity. I don't add any additives when changing water as I use the RO water. When I was using tap water, I only added a dechlorinator. Using tap versus RO water doesn't seem to make any difference, but I've used exclusively RO water for the past month.
I also never change/rinse both filters at the same time, but I don't think that's an issue anyway because I never see an ammonia/nitrite spike. I think the theory of an unknown toxin is the best one, but I'm at a loss as to what to do about that or where to look. With the 40 lb of live sand and ~10 pounds of live rock, I didn't think I'd need to add any more of that. Plus, again, with no ammonia spikes, that should mean that I have enough LR/LS for the bioload. No?
Oh, and I have the lights on 15 hours each day, just because that's the time that the room is used by people. Should I cut back?
Mike
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Valencia71
for how long you left your lights on every day? I hear to many hours on arent good for your fish.
Welcome to the boards.
That info is inaccurate for most "reef" fish. The coral reefs throughout the world all get many hours of sunlight a day. The fish are used to this.
There are some deep water species that do not do as well in brightly lit tanks, but this is not true to most of our fish.
for how long you left your lights on every day? I hear to many hours on arent good for your fish.
Welcome to the boards.
That info is inaccurate for most "reef" fish. The coral reefs throughout the world all get many hours of sunlight a day. The fish are used to this.
There are some deep water species that do not do as well in brightly lit tanks, but this is not true to most of our fish.
1journeyman
Active Member
Lights on that long could stress fish, but that's a contributing factor at this point and not the main problem. I would not light the tank more than 12 hours a day, and certainly not full lights for that long.
Are you seeing a lot of algae build up? With lights on that long you should be...
Ok.. this is a tough one. I'm not familiar with your salinity tester, but the fact that inverts are ok rules out salinity. As you said by testing for ammonia you've ruled out bioload, cycling things.
Flake food isn't the best, but I doubt that's the issue.
Do you have glass tops on the tank? Do you have good surface agitation?
What about your live rock, where did you get it? (no links please) I'm wondering if it or the sand could be leeching something into the water.
Any aerosal based products used anywhere near the tank? Cleaning supplies? Buckets?
Are you seeing a lot of algae build up? With lights on that long you should be...
Ok.. this is a tough one. I'm not familiar with your salinity tester, but the fact that inverts are ok rules out salinity. As you said by testing for ammonia you've ruled out bioload, cycling things.
Flake food isn't the best, but I doubt that's the issue.
Do you have glass tops on the tank? Do you have good surface agitation?
What about your live rock, where did you get it? (no links please) I'm wondering if it or the sand could be leeching something into the water.
Any aerosal based products used anywhere near the tank? Cleaning supplies? Buckets?
ophiura
Active Member
I am concerned about the rotten egg smell, which could be a hydrogen sulfide issue. I am possibly concerned about the amount of circulation in the tank. Do you have a lot of surface aggitation? Not from airstones, but actual water movement. That is always necessary, IMO.
Often these issues are completely overlooked...I am assuming this is a home tank, and not an office tank?
ANY smell you have in the air can theoretically affect the tank. Any sprays used on the carpet, deoderizers...how to you clean the tank glass? Do you have any kids that might put something in? But a really classic one is a kitchen sponge - or other sponge not expressly for use in fish tanks.
I would immediately add carbon, and change it frequently.
I believe Kent makes an organic resin, which I would also consider adding, that absorbs various compounds.
I would immediately add powerheads (from the sound of it there aren't any?) at least one at each end of the tank for additional circulation, and surface aggitation.
I would consider tweaking your skimmer if you are not getting much out of it. Unfortunately some, like seaclones, have that "tornado" action and are....well...not extremely effective.
Often these issues are completely overlooked...I am assuming this is a home tank, and not an office tank?
ANY smell you have in the air can theoretically affect the tank. Any sprays used on the carpet, deoderizers...how to you clean the tank glass? Do you have any kids that might put something in? But a really classic one is a kitchen sponge - or other sponge not expressly for use in fish tanks.
I would immediately add carbon, and change it frequently.
I believe Kent makes an organic resin, which I would also consider adding, that absorbs various compounds.
I would immediately add powerheads (from the sound of it there aren't any?) at least one at each end of the tank for additional circulation, and surface aggitation.
I would consider tweaking your skimmer if you are not getting much out of it. Unfortunately some, like seaclones, have that "tornado" action and are....well...not extremely effective.
ophiura
Active Member
I think the take home message is that in cases like this, it is often not something obvious.
I had some issues with tanks at offices, where the fish would die on basically Tuesday. Everything "seemed" normal, but they were in fact turning off the A/C over the weekend. In another case, the cleaning crew was using cleaning sprays in the office to clean furniture, etc. Bammo.
I had some issues with tanks at offices, where the fish would die on basically Tuesday. Everything "seemed" normal, but they were in fact turning off the A/C over the weekend. In another case, the cleaning crew was using cleaning sprays in the office to clean furniture, etc. Bammo.
mikeyfishy
Member
I got the live rock from my most trusted LFS and he had already cured it before I put it in there. At this point, I'm tempted to move the inverts temporarily, empty the tank, and start over with just some gravel and new (cured) live rock, throwing away what I have. I don't know why but my gut tells me something happened with that sand and the sand is leaching something bad into the water. I don't know why it would have zero effect on inverts and only kill fish though. That's the real mystery. I don't want to start over, but I don't know what else to do. I'd have to re-cycle the tank of course, but I'm about out of ideas. I've already ruled out any sprays or chemicals and the bucket I use has never seen anything but tap water and RO.
Mike
Mike
ophiura
Active Member
Acclimation procedures are what is outlined here: using the drip method over 2-3 hours.
Many LFS don't acclimate fish for anything more than temp. It is common practice. If inverts were dying I would say acclimation first thing (salinity second, heavy metals third).
But fish.... :notsure:
Many LFS don't acclimate fish for anything more than temp. It is common practice. If inverts were dying I would say acclimation first thing (salinity second, heavy metals third).
But fish.... :notsure:
mikeyfishy
Member
I answered the acclimation question in post #12 above. I don't think it's that.
Mike
Mike
hatessushi
Active Member
I would feed the fish you have left something other than Tetramin. IMO it is worthless and if old could cause some problems.
What kind of tank do you have? Is it glass? did you get it used or new? What exactly is the filter equipment you are using? What is the sand in the tank (brand name or did you get it from the beach somewhere)?
What is the alkalinity? What kind of salt do you use?
It seems to me that inverts can live in higher salinity then fish but I could be wrong (Ophuira)? You might get a refractometer whether it is a problem or not just to be saft since Hydrometers can be very inaccurate.
What kind of tank do you have? Is it glass? did you get it used or new? What exactly is the filter equipment you are using? What is the sand in the tank (brand name or did you get it from the beach somewhere)?
What is the alkalinity? What kind of salt do you use?
It seems to me that inverts can live in higher salinity then fish but I could be wrong (Ophuira)? You might get a refractometer whether it is a problem or not just to be saft since Hydrometers can be very inaccurate.
larryndana
Active Member
Where did you get your sand?
What kind of salt?
Also look into using ro/di water, which could help with your algae problem.
Having your lfs test your water for everything they can test for.
I think it has to do with either heavy metals in your water, or your sand.
Starting over wouldn't be a bad idea. Getting a qt tank and cycle it. Then put your inverts in there. You could always try a small fish in this tank to see if it will make it. Total different conditions, different water, tank, lr, and ls.
What kind of salt?
Also look into using ro/di water, which could help with your algae problem.
Having your lfs test your water for everything they can test for.
I think it has to do with either heavy metals in your water, or your sand.
Starting over wouldn't be a bad idea. Getting a qt tank and cycle it. Then put your inverts in there. You could always try a small fish in this tank to see if it will make it. Total different conditions, different water, tank, lr, and ls.
mikeyfishy
Member
I used "Nature's Ocean" live sand. Comes in 20 pound bags in "wet" form. It's been in there for at least 2 months. For salt, I use "Natural Sea": comes in a blue plastic jug. The tank and top are both glass and I got it new. I rinsed it with water when I first started it up but nothing else touched it: no sponges, rags, cleaners, etc. The only thing I did while cycling it was to add some bottled bacteria a few times but the last time I did that was at least a month ago. It seemed to do nothing for the cycling but I don't think it can hurt because it says "impossible to overdose". The filter material is a standard E size Emperor filter and in the media cartridge I have Black Diamond carbon.
Now, the latest in the saga is that I pulled out my live rock to the top and smelled it and it smelled very foul with a rotten egg smell. I remove all the rock (one live rock and two decorative rocks) and the two silk plants I had and did another water change. After that, there was nothing in the tank but the sand and I went and got a new piece of live rock (from a different store) and a few pieces of decorative rock that could be "seeded" by the live rock eventually. So far, the tank is running cleaner and the stinky rocks I took out look like they may have been at least part of the problem because I'm not seeing the instant algae bloom on the sand yet and before, I saw that within an hour of the water change.
We'll see... The foxface is still alive and actually looking a tad better already.
Mike
Now, the latest in the saga is that I pulled out my live rock to the top and smelled it and it smelled very foul with a rotten egg smell. I remove all the rock (one live rock and two decorative rocks) and the two silk plants I had and did another water change. After that, there was nothing in the tank but the sand and I went and got a new piece of live rock (from a different store) and a few pieces of decorative rock that could be "seeded" by the live rock eventually. So far, the tank is running cleaner and the stinky rocks I took out look like they may have been at least part of the problem because I'm not seeing the instant algae bloom on the sand yet and before, I saw that within an hour of the water change.
We'll see... The foxface is still alive and actually looking a tad better already.
Mike
hatessushi
Active Member
If you pulled all of the rock out and put new rock in I would move the Foxface to a QT until the new system cycles. Also remove any invert because they may die from the new cycle also.
It sounds like that live rock was bad for some reason.
It sounds like that live rock was bad for some reason.
blessedyo
Member
I figured that the rock would be the problem. But, before I could reply, I had to read this long blog. lol
The foul egg smell tipped me off.
I would remove any else, especially the Foxface. The creatures within the lr has died (for what ever reason), and can cause havoc on your tank and its inhabitants.
Also, see if your ls has any policies that may aid in your replacement of fish, supplies ...etc. They may give you some kind of store credit. However, they may tell you that the lr was fine when it left the store, and your curing it may have caused the problem.
Hope this helps.
The foul egg smell tipped me off.
I would remove any else, especially the Foxface. The creatures within the lr has died (for what ever reason), and can cause havoc on your tank and its inhabitants.
Also, see if your ls has any policies that may aid in your replacement of fish, supplies ...etc. They may give you some kind of store credit. However, they may tell you that the lr was fine when it left the store, and your curing it may have caused the problem.
Hope this helps.
1journeyman
Active Member
Nope, nope. nope...
You all are missing the key point: No ammonia spike. Nothing has died.
The sulpur smell, to me, points to A buildup of hydrogen sulfide. A common occurrence in improperly maintained sand beds.
Mike, did you ever answer the powerhead question? How much flow do you have in your tank? How deep is your sand?
You all are missing the key point: No ammonia spike. Nothing has died.
The sulpur smell, to me, points to A buildup of hydrogen sulfide. A common occurrence in improperly maintained sand beds.
Mike, did you ever answer the powerhead question? How much flow do you have in your tank? How deep is your sand?
mikeyfishy
Member
I now have the Emperor 280, the skimmer, and an extra power head on the tank. Surface agitation is quite good from what I can see with my untrained eye and I now have about as much stuff as I can hang off the tank: I'm pretty full on the back. The sand is 2 inches deep on the bottom. When I did my water change today, I deep vacuumed the sand again and then ran the vacuum over just the surface of the sand to pick up debris. I noticed when deep vacuuming the sand under the old live rock, a lot of brownish/rust colored water got sucked up and then ran clean after I did that for a minute. I don't know whether I made things worse or better by deep vacuuming that sand twice in as many days, but the smell that came off the old live rock made me think it couldn't hurt and at least to my nose, it no longer stinks with the new live rock in and the old stuff in the garbage. Now I wait and see...
Mike
Mike
1journeyman
Active Member
My current theory is that you don't have enough sand bed critters (snails, worms, pods, mini stars, etc.). In addition to that your flow is not keeping detritus off the bottom of the tank. That is leading to a build up of Hydrogen Sulfide (rotten egg smell).
