Ongoing saga: all fish die in days

[janastasio]

I'm new to this, but isnt using carbon in your filter for SW tanks a No NO??? I've always heard that thus far. I used carbon in my tank when I was curing rock, but had nothing else in the tank, when the rock was cured, I emptied out the carbon and cleaned the filter. Anyone else know if the carbon could be the problem?

 

[1journeyman]

No, carbon is commonly used for SW tanks.

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by zman1
Hydrogen Sulfide issue with the substrate?

Couldn't remember the article were I read this before. Found it- Google "hydrogen sulfide reef" First link at the top. Also, LR can cause it if buried in the sand too from the article.

 

[mikeyfishy]

Interesting article. Sounds like hydrogen sulfide could be the problem. Only oddity is that it should kill the inverts too, but it isn't. I've taken the sea cucumber out temporarily to see if that helps. I read an article on sea cucumber toxicity and the article said that if anything "bothers" the sea cucumber, it can release toxins that wipe out the whole tank. The most interesting tidbit from the article was that it claimed that sea cucumber toxins don't affect inverts; only fish and that's the exact problem I'm having!
Mike

 

[1journeyman]

That's true Mike, but I think Cucumber toxin should kill quickly.

 

[ophiura]

I agree it would kill quickly (it is meant to be a defensive measure, and it does the cuke no good if the fish lives a week when it is about to be eaten).
It also doesn't tend to be problems for months and months...but then you never know. I would be surprised if that is it, considering you smell hydrogen sulfide. But then, who knows.

 

[mikeyfishy]

As it turns out, I believe it was a hydrogen sulfide problem with the sand bed. My foxface died and I was left again with just inverts, so I tore down the entire setup, sterilized things as best I could with just hot water and an aquarium sponge, new filters/bio-wheel and started over. I now have a gravel bed and have decided not to put any more live rock in my tank as it is not going to be a reef tank. I have 4 small damsels in there now to cycle the tank and I'm just going to let it cycle on its own without putting any bottled bacteria or anything in it. Right now, all water parameters are perfect, so hopefully the damsels will cycle the tank without any trouble. I'll keep my eye on the ammonia and nitrites to determine when it has cycled.
From my several-month-long ordeal, I'd never recommend using sand as a substrate. It's just too messy and it seems to be a breeding ground for "bad stuff". When I emptied the tank and took all the sand out, it still absolutely reeked of rotten eggs. Maybe this time I'll have better luck sticking to the basics. Thanks to all who replied.

 

[ophiura]

I am sorry to say your experience is NOT the norm, and I have to strongly disagree with the advice against sand and live rock.
I understand where your experience has turned you against it, but really, it is not the norm at all.
LR is a very healthy thing to have in a tank and not just for a reef. It provides natural grazing opportunities for fish, and places to hide. It is much more natural than any other decor in a tank. Sand can be a matter of personal preference, but gravel can have major issues of its own.
Your experience is DEFINITELY not the norm, and to be honest I am at a bit of a loss in explaining how the issue was with your LR. A sand bed can be an issue if it does not have the appropriate compliment of animals working in it. But overall this is rare in such a young tank.

 

[mikeyfishy]

Out of curiosity, what types of issues can you have with gravel? I've never had/seen any issues with gravel but have read about and have personally had issues (hydrogen sulfide) with sand.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[ophiura]

Do you mean gravel, or crushed coral? No matter really, look up crushed coral threads (or "CC" threads)...
In general it tends to trap a lot of debris and often...not always but often...results in nitrate issues. It also eliminates keeping many types of fish or other animals.
It is a personal preference, but you will find far more people switching from crushed coral to sand, than vice versa. Your problems are far less common than the nitrate issues encountered with crushed coral. And again, I am somewhat at a loss as to how you ended up with this trouble in such a young tank.
I think that hydrogen sulfide may have been the cause of your trouble...but what, really, was the cause of the hydrogen sulfide? Something to me is not adding up.

 

[mikeyfishy]

I mean just your standard garden variety gravel, not CC. Never heard of nitrate problems with gravel which is basically inert: it doesn't do much except add surface area for bio filtration. I wish I knew what caused the hydrogen sulfide problem in my sand. I don't know if the sand (which was Nature's Ocean live sand) itself had a problem or a piece of live rock that I bought had a hydrogen sulfide problem and "seeded" the sand. I wish I knew too. All I know is that I spent a lot of money on what amounts to a bunch of rocks and that buying anything "live" has its risks. I figure starting with a pristine tank and letting things develop from scratch is a better solution this time, as I'm now quite leary of buying anything that is pre-festering with bio material that might include diseases or bad stuff along with the good.
Mike

 

[ophiura]

The problems will basically be identical to crushed coral. That is that the particles are too large and allow detritus to settle below it. You MUST siphon gravel to get that out. There is no fundamental difference between gravel and crushed coral in terms of the "problems" associated with it. Though if it is colored gravel, then there could be certain contamination issues.
You will not find many people in the hobby who use gravel (well I did, but that was well over 10 years ago...and it was one of many early mistakes).
All I can say is that I understand you have been burned, but it is not what the overwhelming majority of people experience using this same technique. So that does lead one to ask what CAUSED the conditions that basically killed off your live rock or sand bed. THAT may cause issues regardless of what you try to do.
The hydrogen sulfide would not "seed" something else, IMO. Hydrogen sulfide is produced by bacteria in areas of low oxygen concentration. These CONDITIONS must be present in order for this to occur. Which is where the question comes in - Hydrogen sulfide may have resulted in fish deaths, but there were PHYSICAL conditions that may have led to rather unusual (IMO) long term chronic conditions in that system.
When you hear of hydrogen sulfide incidents in the hobby, it tends to be a sudden "release" from a sand bed. The chronic nature of your situation is strange to me.
I am concerned about that.
While you could go with gravel, and I presume completely artificial decor, this may not be the solution. It may not be the best for the fish, it may not be gratifying depending on what you ultimately hope to accomplish, and it may not actually prevent problems down the road.
We think we know what may have killed your fish. But we don't know what led to that - was it a symptom of something.
In the end however it is your tank, and your decision to make based on what you hope to accomplish. But I would revisit what sort of inhabitants you would like to keep before putting the tank back together with your new plans. You may wish to reconsider your stocking.

 

[mikeyfishy]

I'm used to vacuuming gravel beds as I've done that on every water change with my freshwater system for years, so I'm used to that. Maybe this is just a case of gravel being more compatible with my own way of doing things. I use black gravel because it doesn't show algae and other debris as I tend to over-clean when things start to look "dirty". I know, that's my own hangup. You make a good point about the cause of the hydrogen sulfide. I wonder myself if it will return even though I've switched to gravel and all "synthetic" stuff in the tank. I'll have to do a little more research on it to see if I can swing things in my favor this time since I have a good start. Thanks again for all the input. I'm certainly in no position to contradict what you say, but I think in this case, gravel is something I feel comfortable dealing with and I want this go-around to be as smooth as possible as I was a gnat's hair from giving up on this saltwater end of the hobby! I just want to feel comfortable this time and not deal with too many things that are foreign to *me*.
Mike

 

[hagfish]

I know you've started over, but I have a few questions to ask about the original tank.
Could you list exactly what fish you put in, and if you put in more than one at once (how many exactly)?
I think I read that you had a glass top enclosing the top of the aquarium, is that correct?
You never said specifically how much flow you had in the tank. It's really something you should know. Could you add up the gallons per hour (GPH) of your powerheads and power filters and tell us?
Are you positive it is hydrogen sulfide you are smelling? I mean, every time I pull something out of my aquariums it has a unique smell that you don't smell anywhere else usually.

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by mikeyfishy
I'm used to vacuuming gravel beds as I've done that on every water change with my freshwater system for years, so I'm used to that. Maybe this is just a case of gravel being more compatible with my own way of doing things. I use black gravel because it doesn't show algae and other debris as I tend to over-clean when things start to look "dirty". I know, that's my own hangup. You make a good point about the cause of the hydrogen sulfide. I wonder myself if it will return even though I've switched to gravel and all "synthetic" stuff in the tank. I'll have to do a little more research on it to see if I can swing things in my favor this time since I have a good start. Thanks again for all the input. I'm certainly in no position to contradict what you say, but I think in this case, gravel is something I feel comfortable dealing with and I want this go-around to be as smooth as possible as I was a gnat's hair from giving up on this saltwater end of the hobby! I just want to feel comfortable this time and not deal with too many things that are foreign to *me*.
Mike
Try as you might, you will not be able to apply your FW experiences very effectively in SW. I would avoid anything that isn't either natural to SW or made for SW. Gravel typically isn't made for SW. Neither are plastic plants. Although there are some decorations that are made for SW.
There is practically no risk in using LR and minimal risk in using LS. And speaking of risk, I would not keep a cuke. Especially if you start having any problems again.
One thing I don't think anybody asked is what kind of test kits you are using. And did you try another kit to verify the first was correct? Some kits aren't worth a crap.

 

[mikeyfishy]

At most (about a month ago) I had a couple small tangs and an oscellaris clown in there. When they all died, I waited about a month and then added a small heniochus. It died after a few days but I thought I had found the problem (low DO) and added a powerhead to increase circulation. I then added a foxface and it died after a week. I only added one fish at a time and even when I had several in the tank, I spaced them about 3 days apart. In the end, right before I gave up on the setup, I was only adding one fish at a time. Keep in mind that through all this, I never lost a single invert. They were fine and have been for months.
I use several different test kits. The one I like best is the master test kit with liquid reagents. I also use the hang-in-tank ammonia monitor and have also verified my tests with the strip type tests. There's definitely nothing wrong with my test kit(s).
As to the top. Yes, it is a glass top. Right now, I've taken out my extra powerhead as it made more noise than any of the other equipment and didn't make any difference with my original setup: fish still died quickly. So now I have an Emperor 280 and a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer, giving a total of 280 + 295 = 575 GPH. That's about 12.5 times the aquarium volume every hour which, by what I've read, should be sufficient especially with a low bio load like I have.
It is possible that the hydrogen sulfide (assumed by smell only, never confirmed) problem arose due to me using bacterial cycling products (like "Cycle" and "Special Blend") to speed up the cycling process. Realizing that it takes bacteria to make H2S, I suppose one of the products I used could have had H2S creating bacteria and it got out of hand. That's the only theory I can come up with. I feel like I've tried it the "forum way", but like anything in life, there are many ways to approach a problem so I'm going to do it the tried and true "old school" way this time and we'll see what happens. My goal is to get the tank going without any cycling additives or LR/LS and get it stable and then assess the need for "extras" like live rock down the road.
Mike

 

[iowafish]

Hey Mike -- so sorry your first experience was a crappy one. I've "been there, done that" about 12 years ago and am just getting back into the SW hobby again slowly but surely, though I've been actively involved in FW for almost 30 years now.
I've read this entire thread, and two things that sticks out at me -- I'm actually surprised no one else mentioned them -- are: 1) the depth of your [former] sand bed. I believe current wisdom is less than an inch or deeper than 4-5 inches (DSB). It's theorized -- on these boards as well as other sources -- that the 2-4 inch range is sort of like a no-fly zone and can cause the greatest challenges with.... what do you know... hydrogen sulphide build up. And 2) the deadzone / lack of circulation under your LR. May or may not have been related to the depth of sand. May SSB folks will put the live rock directly on the bottom of the tank and gently fill sand in around it to avoid the pockets of stagnant water.
I'm curious as to why no one else mentioned these as a possibility; perhaps no on else picked up on the depth of your sand. :thinking:
Good luck with your current set up. I afraid you'll be disappointed in the gravel and lack of LR in the long-run with SW. Someone else already said it, but common FW logic and practices don't generally translate well, if at all, to SW. All the best....
KH :happyfish

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by mikeyfishy
At most (about a month ago) I had a couple small tangs and an oscellaris clown in there. When they all died, I waited about a month and then added a small heniochus. It died after a few days but I thought I had found the problem (low DO) and added a powerhead to increase circulation. I then added a foxface and it died after a week. I only added one fish at a time and even when I had several in the tank, I spaced them about 3 days apart. In the end, right before I gave up on the setup, I was only adding one fish at a time. Keep in mind that through all this, I never lost a single invert. They were fine and have been for months.
I use several different test kits. The one I like best is the master test kit with liquid reagents. I also use the hang-in-tank ammonia monitor and have also verified my tests with the strip type tests. There's definitely nothing wrong with my test kit(s).
As to the top. Yes, it is a glass top. Right now, I've taken out my extra powerhead as it made more noise than any of the other equipment and didn't make any difference with my original setup: fish still died quickly. So now I have an Emperor 280 and a SeaClone 100 protein skimmer, giving a total of 280 + 295 = 575 GPH. That's about 12.5 times the aquarium volume every hour which, by what I've read, should be sufficient especially with a low bio load like I have.
It is possible that the hydrogen sulfide (assumed by smell only, never confirmed) problem arose due to me using bacterial cycling products (like "Cycle" and "Special Blend") to speed up the cycling process. Realizing that it takes bacteria to make H2S, I suppose one of the products I used could have had H2S creating bacteria and it got out of hand. That's the only theory I can come up with. I feel like I've tried it the "forum way", but like anything in life, there are many ways to approach a problem so I'm going to do it the tried and true "old school" way this time and we'll see what happens. My goal is to get the tank going without any cycling additives or LR/LS and get it stable and then assess the need for "extras" like live rock down the road.
Mike
Just a couple of things that stick out to me. I am not sure the test kits you are using really are correct. Tests that sit in the tank at all times and strip tests are among the worst. I don't know if I've heard of this master test kit you mention. Bottom line is that Salifert is generally considered far and away the best and most reliable test kit. This is important, because if your tests were wrong then all these other theories get blown away. I wouldn't rely on the dip tests and the strip tests at all. I'd actually throw them away.
I think you need at least one more powerhead in the tank. At the minimum I would add a maxi-jet 1200. I would probably add one to each side even. I think the SeaClone's flow is all at the top in a wide stream if I'm not mistaken. And the power filter is similar. You will need something coming from the sides too. The bottom of a tank like this would probably have very little water movement. It's practically impossible to have too much flow (some people have 100X turnover per hour). And a decent powerhead is not expensive. So I highly recommend getting one or more. You want to be sure to eliminate ALL dead flow areas in the tank.
Also, you really should remove the glass top. This hurts O2 exchange quite a bit and that in turn can hurt PH among other things. Also, it traps heat. I'm guessing you don't have heat problems though.

 

[hagfish]

Also, what kind of Tangs did you add?
Were you able to get all of these dead fish out right away?

 

[mikeyfishy]

You know, I had wondered about the sand depth. It was about 2 to 2.5 inches deep. Since the sand is so dense and very little circulation gets below the surface, I suppose the H2S could have built up within the sand as I made sure to not disturb it until the very end after I resorted to desperate measures. No matter now. That's behind me. I can actually adjust my skimmer so that it puts out tiny bubbles for a short period and those bubbles help me see the circulation patterns in the tank. I see that there are some relatively dead zones so I may add another power head or at least adjust the ones I have. I have a 4 inch airstone at the back of the tank that helps increase O2 levels under the hood so I'm not too worried about air circulation under the hood.
One new anomaly has arisen, however. The new setup has only been operational for a day yet I'm already seeing trace amounts of nitrite. Didn't think that was possible in such a short period unless my hot water "sterilization" process didn't really kill all the bacteria from the old tank. Anyone ever heard of the cycle beginning so soon? The Master Test Kit BTW is one of the most popular liquid test kits on the market. All of the LFS around here use it and it is very accurate.
Mike