Ongoing saga: all fish die in days
- Thread starter mikeyfishy
- Start date
mikeyfishy
Member
It does if those using it know what they are doing!
Mike
Mike
ophiura
Active Member
Ok, well I don't want to argue test kits here. It doesn't necessarily come down to how skilled the people using it are though.
We used it at the LFS because it was the cheapest to use on people's tanks, and why waste money are real accuracy?
You want real accuracy, it costs money. And there definitely are scientific grade kits available.
Best of luck in the future.
We used it at the LFS because it was the cheapest to use on people's tanks, and why waste money are real accuracy?
You want real accuracy, it costs money. And there definitely are scientific grade kits available.
Best of luck in the future.
1journeyman
Active Member
Refer back to my posts #36 and #39.
Iowafish is correct. An improperly installed "mid" depth sand bed is suspected of being the main culprit in some instances of tank crashes.
Ohiura's correct in her assestment that there is an underlying cause.
Mikey, please don't here this as us being critical. We're just trying to get to the bottom of it. Clearly you've suffered some serious losses and are mighty frustrated.
Make sure your circulation in the tank is 10x gallons an hour (or so). Let's start with that. Also, make sure the powerheads are keeping detritus off the bottom.
I really think you may have just had a "perfect storm" of circumstances hit your tank. Low flow + nitrate source at just the right spot + mid depth sand bed.
For what it's worth. I moved my 210. It had over 700 Lbs. of live sand. I moved all the sand into my refugium and 180. My sand was fine and clean. No sulphur smell or waste buildup. So when you are ready to give it another try it can be done.
Good luck to ya and the new setup!
Iowafish is correct. An improperly installed "mid" depth sand bed is suspected of being the main culprit in some instances of tank crashes.
Ohiura's correct in her assestment that there is an underlying cause.
Mikey, please don't here this as us being critical. We're just trying to get to the bottom of it. Clearly you've suffered some serious losses and are mighty frustrated.
Make sure your circulation in the tank is 10x gallons an hour (or so). Let's start with that. Also, make sure the powerheads are keeping detritus off the bottom.
I really think you may have just had a "perfect storm" of circumstances hit your tank. Low flow + nitrate source at just the right spot + mid depth sand bed.
For what it's worth. I moved my 210. It had over 700 Lbs. of live sand. I moved all the sand into my refugium and 180. My sand was fine and clean. No sulphur smell or waste buildup. So when you are ready to give it another try it can be done.
Good luck to ya and the new setup!
mikeyfishy
Member
I certainly appreciate the advice and wouldn't interpret it as being critical. One thing that might help me is to understand how most people set up their powerheads. Right now, my filter and skimmer are on the back of the tank pointing forward, with the airstone at the back. All this causes the water to "roll" down the front and up the back. I do have one dead spot, however, on the right/bottom. My question now is: is it better to point a powerhead or two across the circulation of the others, or *with* the others? I'm not sure if I should have a couple pointing left/right or if that'd cancel things out and make it worse. Any advice there as to how to point them?
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
1journeyman
Active Member
How is the airstone working? I've heard nothing good about them in a SW tank.
I use a wavemaker in my tank. I love it.
You want your current to move the entire body of water, not shoot a stream. Hope that makes sense. Also, turbulent movement is good. Get the water really mixing.
There is not set way to do this. Experiment with it. Point powerheads at the glass, up, at each other, etc.
I use a wavemaker in my tank. I love it.
You want your current to move the entire body of water, not shoot a stream. Hope that makes sense. Also, turbulent movement is good. Get the water really mixing.
There is not set way to do this. Experiment with it. Point powerheads at the glass, up, at each other, etc.
hagfish
Active Member
Most LFS around here sell Aquarium Pharmecuticals test kits. I've only seen Salifert in a couple. Just because the LFS stocks it doesn't mean it's good. Search the net. Salifert is probably the most reliable kind available to the avg. hobbiest.
For flow, you can typically just get two powerheads and put one on each side facing each other with slight changes up or down. When the streams hit each other it should cause some decent turbulence. I wouldn't bother with powerheads less than 300 gph. I would actually go with more than that.
For flow, you can typically just get two powerheads and put one on each side facing each other with slight changes up or down. When the streams hit each other it should cause some decent turbulence. I wouldn't bother with powerheads less than 300 gph. I would actually go with more than that.
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
How is the airstone working? I've heard nothing good about them in a SW tank.
I think he took that out on 12-7-06
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...07&postcount=9
Today it may be back in
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...4&postcount=60
How is the airstone working? I've heard nothing good about them in a SW tank.
I think he took that out on 12-7-06
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...07&postcount=9
Today it may be back in
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...4&postcount=60
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
I think he took that out on 12-7-06
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...07&postcount=9
Post number 65 seems to imply it's back in though.
I think he took that out on 12-7-06
https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...07&postcount=9
Post number 65 seems to imply it's back in though.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
I was linking a totally different thread
"Help! Fish dying, inverts doing fine! "
Ya, I know, but if you read up a couple of posts (each post on a thread is numbered, for instance this one is #72) you'll see he has it mentioned again.
I was linking a totally different thread
"Help! Fish dying, inverts doing fine! "
Ya, I know, but if you read up a couple of posts (each post on a thread is numbered, for instance this one is #72) you'll see he has it mentioned again.
zman1
Active Member
Okay, I will spell it out rather than beat around the bush. I believe any of the fish that died in the beginning don't count since the "Help! Fish dying, inverts doing fine! " thread was while the tank was still in cycle. Recommendations were made to let the tank cycle first and remove the airstone, which was per the post and now it's back. It's hard to troubleshoot a tank when all the answers and actions are perfect. :notsure: This is why I asked for a picture :thinking:
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
Okay, I will spell it out rather than beat around the bush. I believe any of the fish that died in the beginning don't count since the "Help! Fish dying, inverts doing fine! " thread was while the tank was still in cycle. Recommendations were made to let the tank cycle first and remove the airstone, which was per the post and now it's back. It's hard to troubleshoot a tank when all the answers and actions are perfect. :notsure: This is why I asked for a picture :thinking:
gotcha.
Okay, I will spell it out rather than beat around the bush. I believe any of the fish that died in the beginning don't count since the "Help! Fish dying, inverts doing fine! " thread was while the tank was still in cycle. Recommendations were made to let the tank cycle first and remove the airstone, which was per the post and now it's back. It's hard to troubleshoot a tank when all the answers and actions are perfect. :notsure: This is why I asked for a picture :thinking:
gotcha.
mikeyfishy
Member
I put the airstone back in for two reasons. First, the column of bubbles at the back of the tank helps create some upflow in the water and I can see a lot of water movement on the surface of the water caused by the water being lifted along with the bubbles. Second, because I have a glass top, an airstone is an excellent way to introduce fresh air from outside the top to the area under the top and that improves air exchange at the surface. I'm under no delusion that the airstone is directly adding any DO to the water, but I do think it is helping with surface movement and oxygen under the tank top.
The theory about micro-bubbles adversely affecting the gills of fish seems to be a forum "trend" rather than a fact. The only down side I can see is that it can lead to salt creep but the effect is minimal and I keep an eye on my salinity as I do other water parameters. I honestly don't believe the "myth" that a typical airstone can create harmful "micro bubbles" especially when the stone is at the far rear of the tank against the edge.
Think about it logically. Ever been thrown off a board when surfing a wave or just thrown by a wave in the ocean and open your eyes under water. What do you see? Tons of bubbles, and the way in which those bubbles are created (air pockets being "folded" under the surface) is identical to an airstone in that air is simply being forced beneath the surface. I definitely don't think airstones can hurt after talking to a number of experienced SW people in my area. Sometimes trends are set on forums based on nothing more than people jumping on a bandwagon.
Sometimes someone says that they think micro bubbles can cause problems, another person pipes up with "Ooh, that sounds bad" and you've started the misinformation train. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I wonder... you have to be able to decipher fact from fiction on forums like these: something I'm not informed well enough to do at the moment so when I hear something contrary to what I hear from trusted LFS owners who have been in business with quality stock for many years, I have to wonder... No disrespect intended.
Mike
The theory about micro-bubbles adversely affecting the gills of fish seems to be a forum "trend" rather than a fact. The only down side I can see is that it can lead to salt creep but the effect is minimal and I keep an eye on my salinity as I do other water parameters. I honestly don't believe the "myth" that a typical airstone can create harmful "micro bubbles" especially when the stone is at the far rear of the tank against the edge.
Think about it logically. Ever been thrown off a board when surfing a wave or just thrown by a wave in the ocean and open your eyes under water. What do you see? Tons of bubbles, and the way in which those bubbles are created (air pockets being "folded" under the surface) is identical to an airstone in that air is simply being forced beneath the surface. I definitely don't think airstones can hurt after talking to a number of experienced SW people in my area. Sometimes trends are set on forums based on nothing more than people jumping on a bandwagon.
Sometimes someone says that they think micro bubbles can cause problems, another person pipes up with "Ooh, that sounds bad" and you've started the misinformation train. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but I wonder... you have to be able to decipher fact from fiction on forums like these: something I'm not informed well enough to do at the moment so when I hear something contrary to what I hear from trusted LFS owners who have been in business with quality stock for many years, I have to wonder... No disrespect intended.
Mike
zman1
Active Member
I am not arguing the merit of an airstone(micro-bubbles). In fact the only thing I have read on it was for a issue that was related to a freshwater state hatchery. This can not be counted as an unexplained deaths - especially since you were seeing Ammonia and NO2 levels. You overloaded the tank.
"In the beginning, I put in 40 pounds of the Nature's Ocean live sand, ran it for about 4 days, and put a few fish in (2 clownfish, a couple of tangs, and a royal gramma)"
On 1-24-07 you list all levels are good, at what point after 12/7/05 were the levels good again. If it was after a water change on 1/22/07 as an example then I wouldn't think it was a mystery. How often are you testing and at what intervals did you add more fish than the first batch listed above.
This is not a personal attack. I think you are rushing things and not allowing some of the other good recommendations people have given a chance to work before going back to the way is was.
I wish you the best, you broke it down and serlized it, now give it time to cycle again before putting just 1 fish in and make it a Hardy fish. Try a Damsel, wait a month put another in...
"In the beginning, I put in 40 pounds of the Nature's Ocean live sand, ran it for about 4 days, and put a few fish in (2 clownfish, a couple of tangs, and a royal gramma)"
On 1-24-07 you list all levels are good, at what point after 12/7/05 were the levels good again. If it was after a water change on 1/22/07 as an example then I wouldn't think it was a mystery. How often are you testing and at what intervals did you add more fish than the first batch listed above.
This is not a personal attack. I think you are rushing things and not allowing some of the other good recommendations people have given a chance to work before going back to the way is was.
I wish you the best, you broke it down and serlized it, now give it time to cycle again before putting just 1 fish in and make it a Hardy fish. Try a Damsel, wait a month put another in...
cjml
Member
Originally Posted by mikeyfishy
As it turns out, I believe it was a hydrogen sulfide problem with the sand bed. My foxface died and I was left again with just inverts, so I tore down the entire setup, sterilized things as best I could with just hot water and an aquarium sponge, new filters/bio-wheel and started over. I now have a gravel bed and have decided not to put any more live rock in my tank as it is not going to be a reef tank. I have 4 small damsels in there now to cycle the tank and I'm just going to let it cycle on its own without putting any bottled bacteria or anything in it. Right now, all water parameters are perfect, so hopefully the damsels will cycle the tank without any trouble. I'll keep my eye on the ammonia and nitrites to determine when it has cycled.
From my several-month-long ordeal, I'd never recommend using sand as a substrate. It's just too messy and it seems to be a breeding ground for "bad stuff". When I emptied the tank and took all the sand out, it still absolutely reeked of rotten eggs. Maybe this time I'll have better luck sticking to the basics. Thanks to all who replied.
Hello- hope things get better- saltwater is definitely a challenge! But I don't think you should cycle with live fish-- another reason not to listen to lfs. Save your damsels....
As it turns out, I believe it was a hydrogen sulfide problem with the sand bed. My foxface died and I was left again with just inverts, so I tore down the entire setup, sterilized things as best I could with just hot water and an aquarium sponge, new filters/bio-wheel and started over. I now have a gravel bed and have decided not to put any more live rock in my tank as it is not going to be a reef tank. I have 4 small damsels in there now to cycle the tank and I'm just going to let it cycle on its own without putting any bottled bacteria or anything in it. Right now, all water parameters are perfect, so hopefully the damsels will cycle the tank without any trouble. I'll keep my eye on the ammonia and nitrites to determine when it has cycled.
From my several-month-long ordeal, I'd never recommend using sand as a substrate. It's just too messy and it seems to be a breeding ground for "bad stuff". When I emptied the tank and took all the sand out, it still absolutely reeked of rotten eggs. Maybe this time I'll have better luck sticking to the basics. Thanks to all who replied.
Hello- hope things get better- saltwater is definitely a challenge! But I don't think you should cycle with live fish-- another reason not to listen to lfs. Save your damsels....
mikeyfishy
Member
Initially, I probably did put too many fish in the tank, although I'd put one in, wait a few days, then put in the next, monitoring ammonia/nitrites every morning. It actually ran fine for about 2 weeks with the 3-4 fish load. I measured all water parameters every day and ammonia/nitrites stayed zero for a full two weeks, then ammonia spiked and the tank crashed a few days after. Again though, all the inverts did fine. When I say "spiked", the ammonia readings were at about 0.5 at their highest. I know I didn't overfeed and there were no fish deaths before the first spike so I don't know what caused it after running fine for 2 weeks. I did one water change but did not change or rinse the filter for fear of disturbing the bio filtration too early.
After the initial crash, I did the trick with the individual shrimp from the grocery store. I let it fester on the bottom for about 2 weeks, during which time I saw ammonia rise to about 1.0, then fall to zero, and nitrites rose to about 0.75 and then fell to zero. At this point, it appeared the tank had completed its cycle. And again, the inverts were in the tank during this time (I had no QT) and all did fine without issue and none of them picked at the dead shrimp once it started to rot. After ammonia/nitrites went to zero, I removed the remaning shrimp carcass and tried adding one small fish at a time. At that point is when the fish all started dying after 3-5 days with ammonia/nitrites measuring zero every day, pH at 8.3, and salinity at 1.022 to 1.023. That's when I posted this second thread about fish dying after a few days.
BTW, I never had the sulfer smell even when that rotting shrimp was in the tank. That smell started appearing after I removed the shrimp and after the first fish added after that point had died. And... when a fish would die, I'd remove it in just a few hours at most. The only reason I kept trying with fish is that all water parameters were perfect and I kept trying to modify my acclimation procedures, dripping for longer periods, thinking I was doing something wrong there.
Mike
After the initial crash, I did the trick with the individual shrimp from the grocery store. I let it fester on the bottom for about 2 weeks, during which time I saw ammonia rise to about 1.0, then fall to zero, and nitrites rose to about 0.75 and then fell to zero. At this point, it appeared the tank had completed its cycle. And again, the inverts were in the tank during this time (I had no QT) and all did fine without issue and none of them picked at the dead shrimp once it started to rot. After ammonia/nitrites went to zero, I removed the remaning shrimp carcass and tried adding one small fish at a time. At that point is when the fish all started dying after 3-5 days with ammonia/nitrites measuring zero every day, pH at 8.3, and salinity at 1.022 to 1.023. That's when I posted this second thread about fish dying after a few days.
BTW, I never had the sulfer smell even when that rotting shrimp was in the tank. That smell started appearing after I removed the shrimp and after the first fish added after that point had died. And... when a fish would die, I'd remove it in just a few hours at most. The only reason I kept trying with fish is that all water parameters were perfect and I kept trying to modify my acclimation procedures, dripping for longer periods, thinking I was doing something wrong there.
Mike
mikeyfishy
Member
Well, I put my Maxijet 1200 back in last night and got it adjusted so there's a lot of flow throughout the tank now. It looks like it will help because there is certainly a lot more movement in the tank. The only oddity now is that I'm on day 4 running this new setup and I still have no detectable ammonia and a trace of nitrite. How could this tank be cycling so quickly, if it is indeed cycling? I would think with 4 small damsels in a 46 gallon tank, I would have seen an ammonia spike by now. No?
Mike
Mike
