Ph Reduction

[Kunal Patel]

Hi,

I did a water test in aquarium and noticed a drop in PH, it went from 8.4 to 7.4. I checked it a couple of weeks ago and it was 8.4. Within those weeks,
I added a crushed coral substrate to my refugium, cleaned out my canister filter and added new chemi pure elite bag. I also added a new protein skimmer
I got the Reef Octopus CLSC-2000HOB. Would any of these or the combination of create a reduction in my PH levels?

Thank You
Kunal Patel

 

[beaslbob]

pH drops do to increased carbon dioxide.

I think you will find pH rises if you have macro algae in a refugium.

also be sure to check ph just before lights out.

my .02

 

[Kunal Patel]

I have adequate circulation for air, well I think is adequate in my 120 tank. I have a wave maker on either side, alternating each side on and off, my refugium pump, protein skimmer and canister filter. Is there some else that would cause CO2 to you up?

 

[lmforbis]

Have you checked your magnesium, calcium, and alkalinity. When they are good the pH follows.

 

[Kunal Patel]

I haven't checked my Magnesium, last week I had the alkalinity checked and it was high.

 

[beaslbob]

I have adequate circulation for air, well I think is adequate in my 120 tank. I have a wave maker on either side, alternating each side on and off, my refugium pump, protein skimmer and canister filter. Is there some else that would cause CO2 to you up?

You either have a bad test or need more algae.

 

[geridoc]

Having spent most of my career in analytical laboratories, I would guess that the measurement is faulty. One of the problems with colorimetric kits, such as those commonly used for pH determination, is that there is no standard solution of known pH to test, so you don't really know if the kit is working.l In the lab we use pH meters costing up to thousands of dollars, and would never test the pH of a solution without simultaneously testing a solution of known pH as a verification. Using my lab-grade standard solutions, I have found considerable variation in pH values in consumer-level test kits.

 

[Iron_brigade]

well for those who don't have access to a lab or don't have a way to test pH as you do, what do you suggest? If all we have are the liquid test kits how can we trust our results if what you say is accurate? Are you really saying that we really can't truly know the pH of our system and the current testing is a false sense of security? Help me understand how to truly know what my pH is with confidence and not guess work. What options do we have I guess I would say?

 

[geridoc]

I am a great believer in the theory that constant conditions are more important than the actual value of a water parameter. So you don't really have to worry about what the pH is, just whether it is fluctuating too much. If Nitrogen waste levels are low and there is good circulation then the pH is probably OK, and all you need to do is measure it infrequently to be sure it isn't changing too much.

 

[Iron_brigade]

So given what you said about Nigrogen levels and pH relation. Does one still need to buffer the water with pH buffer?

 

[bang guy]

So given what you said about Nigrogen levels and pH relation. Does one still need to buffer the water with pH buffer?

One needs to maintain an Alkalinity level balanced with an appropriate Calcium level. Using an alkalinity additive (such as a PH buffer) to raise PH is almost always a mistake.

 

[Iron_brigade]

Wow it seems everything I was doing was wrong. I was buffering my water with Kent Marine pH buffer every 2 weeks. I eventually quit doing it because I noticed no change in pH ever, even well after I stopped buffering.
So many questions now. Please expound upon your statement about pH buffer is a mistake. If what you say is true why do they make the product.
I have been reading a lot about calcium and that has triggered questions

1. Is there a calcium test that is required and how often?
2. how do you maintain calcium outside of what comes from the RO water?
3. what is the relationship between calcium and pH?
4. How do you maintain proper pH levels.

thank you for the answers I want to nail all this down and learn before I start up a new tank unprepared.

 

[bang guy]

Wow it seems everything I was doing was wrong. I was buffering my water with Kent Marine pH buffer every 2 weeks. I eventually quit doing it because I noticed no change in pH ever, even well after I stopped buffering.
So many questions now. Please expound upon your statement about pH buffer is a mistake. If what you say is true why do they make the product.
I have been reading a lot about calcium and that has triggered questions

1. Is there a calcium test that is required and how often?
2. how do you maintain calcium outside of what comes from the RO water?
3. what is the relationship between calcium and pH?
4. How do you maintain proper pH levels.

thank you for the answers I want to nail all this down and learn before I start up a new tank unprepared.

They make the product because a lot of people buy it. It is useful to raise Alkalinity so it is a valid product but should only be used to maintain or raise Alkalinity.

1 - yes most brands have a calcium kit. I prefer Salifert but most brands are fine. I would test once a week, more often if you notice issues.

2 - there should be no calcium in RO water. To maintain calcium the first step is to test it and chart the results over time so you get an idea of the consumption level. For many tanks just water changes are all that's required. For systems that consume it faster there are many good calcium additives on the market, or limewater, or a calcium reactor. If your consumption is low I would first suggest just doing a water change when it gets low. If that's insufficient the next step would be a two part additive like B-Ionic.

3 - there is a loose relationship between Calcium and PH, it's very indirect and too complicated for a short answer. PH is more closely associated with Alkalinity but that's fairly indirect as well.

4 - If Alkalinity is in a good range and PH is low then it is almost always excess Carbon dioxide in the water. The second cause could be from metabolic acids in the water from rotting organic matter. Determine the cause (or causes) and then make a plan to fix the actual problem.

 

[Iron_brigade]

Thank you again for the help. Permit me a question or two more. So calcium should be low that's what I gather. what I did not pick up is what level should calcium be at (measurement and value) Do I want any calcium or as little as possible what?

The last question is a rehash to understand. So if my nitrates are low my pH will remain low/balanced. That is a correct statement? So I should have no reason to adjust pH even if nitrates are inline?

 

[bang guy]

Calcium should be in a range of 350ppm - 450ppm in my opinion. For more experience reefkeepers they will adjust to what works best for them but for you I would recommend maintaining Calcium around 400ppm. This is not low... Most saltmixes will get above 400ppm but that's fine.

I do not believe there is a connection between Nitrate and PH.

 

[Iron_brigade]

They make the product because a lot of people buy it. It is useful to raise Alkalinity so it is a valid product but should only be used to maintain or raise Alkalinity.


4 - If Alkalinity is in a good range and PH is low then it is almost always excess Carbon dioxide in the water. The second cause could be from metabolic acids in the water from rotting organic matter. Determine the cause (or causes) and then make a plan to fix the actual problem.

Ok I thought Alkalinity is pH? above statement says: "If Alkalinity is in a good range and PH" the and in that statement seams to indicate 2 different things. Confused here.

So doing water changes is one method to reduce Co2 in the water?
I still have not got a clear answer on how the pH is maintained in a system. Is pH a byproduct of some managing some other function such as Nitrates, algae, Co2 or water changes? Please help me to understand this.

 

[lmforbis]

Water circulation will help reduce co2. The more the better.

 

[bang guy]

Hello Iron,

Alkalinity is not the same as PH. They are different water parameters. Alkalinity in our systems is mostly made up of Carbonate and Bicarbonate with a pinch of Borate.

PH at its roots a measure of Hydrogen ions in the water.

Alkalinity is made up of trace elements that need to be maintained, it's one of the most important water parameters in a salt water system.

Think of PH more of as a symptom or indicator and not something that should be directly maintained. If PH is too high or too low then something is out of balance in the tank. Using Carbonate to directly raise PH is basically just masking the symptom, it's not fixing the problem.

CO2 isn't efficiently removed with water changes. Additional water circulation, a better skimmer, opening a window, are good ways to reduce excess CO2. Not overstocking is a good preventative measure.

 

[Iron_brigade]

That was very interesting information regarding PH, this is exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately I still am fuzzy on the links of other factors to balance PH, I guess I mean to say what has the most impact on PH and the 2nd and 3rd factors to look at when PH is out of balance.

Regarding CO2 is there an instrument or method aquarists use to test for this.
How I currently would combat CO2 is this and tell me if this is accurate or I need more. The water return on the top tank sufficiently agitates the surface.
My return to the sump is set up like filling a glass being filled by at a faucet, water dumps into the sump from above. (this is covered though to keep splashing down) I then have a small spill over into the return tank where my Reef Octopus skimmer is running. Is this sufficient agitation, given a low fish population?

thank you for all the time and help

 

[lmforbis]

Co2 shouldn't be much of an issue. Alkalinity is more important to test. Components that contribute to alkalinity also increase the pH.