Phosphate....my take on things

steveweast

Member
In light of recent events and interest, I thought that I would post a few of my ideas on this sometimes confusing subject.
Phosphate in the ocean is limiting...meaning that everyone wants it and it is in short supply....however, in our closed systems, phosphate builds and builds until it can become toxic to some of the delicate creatures that we are now trying to keep.
Now, this toxic level is different for each tank as the phosphate level is a function of how much phosphate we put in our tanks... and we put alot of phosphate in...fish food... additives... some carbons... some salts..etc. It just keeps building. To confound us even more, our tanks (when new) have an enormous capacity to bind (store) phosphate. The liverock and sand can alone hold alot of phosphate as it binds readily to calcium carbonate/limestone. But, it has a limit...and when it reaches that limit.. it will leach it back into the tank...and eventually crash the tank....sometimes refered to as "old tank syndrome". It also is usually dismissed as one of those "things that happen and oh well..."
So...what to do... well that's different for each tank...I'll give you two examples...
First... there is,what I consider, to be one of the most extraordinary examples of an SPS reef at my LFS. It has been set up for going on eight years now with minimal maintenance and no refugium...how is that possible when the rest of us have phosphate/algae problems ??? The answer is that it is primarily a coral tank with only a few emaciated small fish and very few inputs (food). The phosphate inputs are very small... and the sand and liverock are just storing the small amount that is put in... eventually this tank too.. will have problems... it will just take longer. He could avoid this date with destiny if he were to just have something that removes the phosphate (a reactor or a refugium).
Second... there is another tank in London (David Saxby) that is huge...maybe 2500gal (this tank is also detailed in Mike Palettas book). This tank is chocked full of corals and over 300 fish...and as a result, he feeds softball sizes of food. How is this tank surviving??? The answer is that he uses vast amounts of Rowaphos to export the phosphate.
The moral is... this is all an input/export hobby that we are in. Our tanks cannot process the nutrients as the ocean can...and as a result, what goes in..must come out..if we are to succeed. Everyone must decide how they will balance this equation... for some it might be limit inputs and have no fish and a small refugium for nutrient export...for others, it might be removing as much waste as possible. The answer for my system has been the later since I wanted alot of phosphate pooping fish... which means attacking the phosphate on multiple fronts.. limit inputs (without starving the fish), phosphate reactor, sand vacuuming, etc.
I hope that this long winded post will serve to clarify a topic that is often confussing...at least from point of view.
 
E

eaglefan

Guest
Steve thank you for taking the time and explaining this. I only speak for myself but everythread I read of yours I get ideas and info that will help me in the long run. Once again thankyou and your tank is a work of art.
 

steveweast

Member
I would like to add one more thing... this phosphate thing also presents problems to the aquarist because it is so hard to test for. Phosphate ( inorganic...our inputs) is so in demand that it is immediately grabbed by everyone...hair algae, liverock, bacteria, the sand, the fish...and is locked up (organic phosphate). Our test kits can only detect what's in the water... not what is locked up in something else. Only when that something else dies...algae, bacteria, fish, etc does that phosphate get released back into the water... and the mad dash starts again. This is the reason that folks can have a hair algae problem and test zero for phosphates.
Now, folks that harvest macro algae are removing the phosphates with each harvest...good... but, does it equal what's going in ?? that's the hard part to determine. It's one of the reasons that I've gone to a reactor...which is in essence.. another predator looking to eat phosphate... only he never releases it back into the system because he never dies...he only gets full.. The only hard part is to tell when the reactor has absorbed all that he can.... nothing is easy, is it ? The reactor just sits there waiting for phosphate to hit the water...like when something dies or food is put in... and some bacteria have a life span of just 12 hours....so, phosphate is always coming and going. The idea is for the reactor to out compete the algaes...the same concept as a refugium and macro export.
Phosphate is in constant flux in our tanks...it's being released...then absorbed... the trick is to control this equation and not let it control us with unwanted hair algae ... or worse
 

lestregus

Member
wow! excellent posts :D this is very informative... i've been researching the reactors a bit, and i was wondering how often you change your media? the reactors i've seen seem to be very reasonably priced..
 

elpezgrande

Member
Steve, thanks for stopping by and sharing your experiences, it's very helpful. And like everyone else, I think your tank is the greatest. You had mentioned that you use Rowaphos instead of Phosban. Is there any reason for that choice?
Melody, thanks for posting about the reactors you found in that other thread, it gave me a good starting point for research on this subject.
 

neowind

Member
Wow Mel thanks for the pic I found one of those reactors for 40 dollars brand new thats awsome. Sounds like a very nice investment.
 

saltynewbie

Member
mel im planning on ordering that same reactor, but i think i will use rowaphos instead of phosban... many people prefer rowaphos over any other phosphate removal media.
 

benj2112

Member
I don't know how accurate this little statement is or if it is just a sales pitch, but I found this little statement in relation to Rowaphos compared to phosban and others.
"Other medias tested reached only 30% to 40% of it ’s removal capacity by weight. Additionally ROWAphos was found to continue to remove phosphates at lower concentrations and had a higher maximum holding capacity."
 

skirrby

Active Member
wow the price on that is very good.. would make it more than worth a try.. wonder what kinda pump you would need to run it though.. thats one place it could get expensive
 

zanemoseley

Active Member
I think I heard a maxi 400 or 600 may do better unless you plan on hooking up it up to a ball valve, expecially with the Rowaphos too much flow I head will turn your tank brown for a while because of the dust
 

stapler

Member
Wow...I just learned something! I am gonna look into those reactors...think I might have to pick one up myself.
 

zanemoseley

Active Member
actually I think the phosban model just came out, I havn't heard of anyone who actually has one yet. I heard its similar to a coralife model that was discontinued, I plan on getting one soon myself
 

bdhough

Active Member
Steve could you touch on carbon? i know vaguely it helps pull organics, but thats limited and it should be removed after a short period. i basically run it every now and again though...
 

steveweast

Member
Carbon....hmmmm...I do use carbon regularly. I feel that it helps polish the water...which is extremely important in my case since my tank is 8 feet from front to back ....and any cloudiness is a distraction. Carbon is similar to the phosphate removers in that ...it is hard to tell when they become exhausted. It becomes a trial and error thing that varies with each tank's own bioload. For my situation, I run a bag of carbon in my sump and change it every 10 days or so...seems to keep my water clarity high.
The one thing that everyone should do is test your carbon for phosphates!!!! Place a tablespoon of your carbon in a cup of RO water and let it sit overnight. Now test for phosphates ( as well as just RO water without the carbon in it to act as a control)...I use a Sailfert test kit. I was shocked when I did this test on the carbon that I had used for over a year... the phosphate that it was leaching was off the color chart.... so, for a year, i was just dumping phosphate into my tank.... and this, even though the label said "phosphate free"...maybe they meant that they weren't charging extra for the phosphate. I have since changed to Black Diamond which tested zero on the same test...but, I still test every new can of it ...just in case they change something.
 

tanksalot

Member
steveweast,
I have been finding your posts very interesting. Do you have your own web page? If you do could you post a link to it? I was reading about your setup in another locations tank of the month, where it said you dose dt's. I know you probally dont go and update that profile, but if you have your own page where you keep track of your tanks progress I would love to look at it and learn from it.
 

steveweast

Member
I did do the phyto thing way back when....but, I felt that it wasn't benefitting the creatures that I was keeping...so, I stopped and saw no difference in my corals...although the algae on the glass was less. If i were trying to keep sponges or feather dusters, I might be still using it...but, my corals seemed to perfer the higher water quality in lieu of phyto.
I am currently working on an exremely detailed website that will have tons of photos of every aspect of my system...including schematics and philosophies. The site should debut in another two or three months.
 
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