Potential new salt hobbist

[mecc]

Ok I have read seveaal forums and found this one to be the most helpful so far. I have read some books, and am gaining knowledge for my first attempt in salt water.
I have been running freshwater on and off since I was 16 (37 now) I currently have a 60 gallon planted community tank that I have been running for about 2 years, plants just got added in over the summer.
My wife and I had been talking about getting a second tank and trying saltwater. I have always talked myself out of it before either with my lack of knowledge or the expense of some of the fish and equipment. But I feel that I'm read to get my feet wet.
I do have some questions as I should and I hoping to gain a bit more understanding of some things before we get a tank.
We are looking into a 29 gallon set up mostly due to space, ( looking at a cube 29 similar to this one http://www.**************.com/general/404.cfm so I know this is going to limit what i put in the tank but what are some good beginner fish that I should consider for this size of tank? Looking at a community type tank nothing too aggressive. Also based on the link is the lighting this going to be what I need if I were to put invertabrates in the tank or potential plants or even live rock?
Reef tank vs fish only/live rock what is the difference?
What is the fish to gallon ratio for salt water? I have read a couple of places that had differing thoughts on it, one said 1 fish per 20 gallons ( seems a bit steep to me) another said 1 inch per 4 gallons. I'm a bit confused on what a good ratio would be.
I my house I don't have a great place to put the tank where it will stay out of direct sunlight however I have a spot where we are considering placing that isn't going to get alot of sunlight and I'll have blinds closed to help out as much as it can. will this affect the tank any that I need to be concerned of?
I'm sure I'll have more questions Thanks for responses in advanced.

 

[groupergenius]

So much depends on what you want to end up with.
IMHO live rock should be a major part of whatever path you take.
The fish/inverts will depend on what you're goals are. Fish only or reef.
To start out successful, you may need a direction. It really helps save you money and mistakes in the long run.

 

[fishtaco]

Congrats, I got into saltwater about 10 months ago and even though it has been a steep learning curve, I am totally hooked on my two 15 gallon nano tanks set-up for corals. Just remember to take your time when you take the plunge. Your story sounds like mine, I also have a couple of planted freshwater tanks, although one is a 55 gallon with 8 big silver dollars, so maybe planted is not the right word, more like I dump in several different types of floating plants every month and they eat it all and I buy more.
Fishtaco

 

[socalnano24]

Reef tank means that you would eventually be setting up for adding corals, invertebrates (shrimp, crabs, snails etc.), possibly macroalgae, definitley live rock and live sand or crushed coral.
Fish only tanks have been known to be run without live rock and live sand with very good mechanical and chemical filtration, but typically live rock is recomended.
Some good starter fish (after a properly cycled tank period ranging from 2 weeks to 8 weeks depending on your set up and how your cycle progresses), could be a clown fish or paired clownfish. Six line wrasses are very easy to keep (however can become slightly territorial if alone in the tank before other inhabitants are added, may consider last). A pistol shrimp and goby combination can be cool(they work together in a symbiotic relationship), just make sure your rock work is set on your glass so as not to be undermined by the shrimp.
If you want a reef tank, I recomend flame shrimp. You would also want a clean up crew consisting of at least 5 hermit crabs and some Cerith Snails. Nassarius snails can be handy as well for sand maintenance.

 

[mecc]

Thaks this points me into some good starting directions.
what's a good fish to water ratio?

 

[flukes]

Hello Mecc and welcome,
One of the biggest things that I have a hard time explaining to people when I tell them that I have a saltwater aquarium is that fish is only just a small part of the tank. Everyone's first question is "what kind of fish do I have?" don't get me wrong I love and enjoy the fish that are in my tank BUT the fish is only just half of what IMO saltwater hobbies enjoy. There are tons of other things that make this hobby exciting such as all the different types of crabs, snails, shrimp, starfish, feather dusters, hitchhikers, coral and ect. Unlike a freshwater tank, I can look in my saltwater tank and almost always see something that I have never seen before or something that I did not intend to add to my tank (good or bad).
Ok back to your question, in a 29 gallon tank you could keep 4-5 small fish in there, but again you will have more in your tank than 4-5 fish, you will be amazed at all of the neat and wonderful things that you will find living in the live rock that you add.
In my opinion I would not get the bio cube, simply because in this hobby we are always looking to upgrade and it is hard to upgrade the bio cubes. If size is an issue for you I would buy just a simple 29 gallon tank and look at installing a sump on it. Figure spending $50 dollars on a 29 gallon tank, $150 for stuff to build a nice sump and another $100 for overflows and returns. But if you set this up right you will not need a over the back or canister filter and if your return from the sump is strong enough you will not need to buy any powerheads which can save you more $$.
I would also start out simple for now with fish and live rock, keep learning and spend your money wisely. You don't need to buy expensive lights right now, wait and see if you really want to put coral in your tank (thou I'm sure that you will) and you can hold off on buying an expensive protean skimmer, but keep in mind that you will want one, and need room in your sump for it. Buy a simple test kit and a refractometer.
Everything that I wrote is just a suggestion and I am sure that there will be others that will disagree with me but that is why this is a hobby, good luck!!!!!

 

[flukes]

Here is an example of some of the cool things that you might find in your tank. I found this urchin in my tank that I did not buy (well I bought the live rock that it was hiding in) and when I first seen it, it was the size of a marble and I was not sure what it was at first, but now it is the size of a large grapefruit.

 

[mecc]

wow that's very cool. I am thinking of putting in some invertabrates, will that keep me from putting in 4 small fish? what are some good inverts
for a beginner that would work in a 29? and is there a limit to how many I should have?
I was looking at the nano not so much for upgrading but mre as the shape of it, like I said before I'm limited in space so having a 2 foot long tank is going to make things very tight. I might be able make it work though. May have to do lots of rearranging.
I'm very nervous but excited about delving into the salt hobby the closest fish store to me is nearly an hour one way that carries salt, so I don't get in there very often, but I have been there and the staff so far hasn't steered me wrong yet. I'm sure I'll have more questions down the road

 

[srfisher17]

I'd read Bob Fenner's book "The Conscience marine Hobbiest" from cover to cover. It will answer a lot of questions for you; and suggest many more. Then, as you get into this wonderful hobby/addiction; prepare to get 2nd & 3rd morgtages and to sell your loved ones into slavery to support your addiction.

Just kidding, of course. The enjoyment & relaxation factor of keeping SW tanks has really saved me a fortune; no Psychiatrists, murder charges, massive drug intake, shooting the television, etc.

 

[socalnano24]

I don't feel that adding a few inverterbrates should take away from your total fish count. For instance in my 24 nano, I have 4 fish, along with a flame shrimp and emerald crab. Some will recomend against crabs due to the fact that they can very unpredictable. However mine has been fine.
The nano can be handy in the fact that it already has a built in sump and lighting. The one that you showed had compact flourescents which isn't a high end lighting system so its not like your paying for t5's or MH's when you don't need them. Buying a boxed system can cut down on having to do it yourself on the setup if thats what your looking for.
Keep in mind that if your saltwater store is an hour away, you will need to change at least 3 gallons of water a week, so you'll either need to get an RO(reverse osmosis) water system to mix your own water, or will have to buy premixed saltwater to keep at your place. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[mecc]

wel I may have found a used 29 gallon salt tank that someone is willing to let go for about $100. This comes with a filter(Marieneland 280)Light, he has some leftover salt, and some other items, I'm considering it, I know one thing I need to ask him if any copper has ever been added in. are there any other concerns i need to ask about before I buy? I fugure this will get me in to some basic equipmennt cheap I can get better equipment and other items if these aren't up to par due to usage and age.
Now how to make it work in the room.....this will be interesting

 

[flukes]

I dont know of any questions that you should ask
Does it come with live rock and live sand? if so then this sounds like a great way to save some money!

 

[mecc]

I'll be getting this hopefully tomorrow, I'll get a list of everything with my purchase to see what I would need or upgrade. He is moving and has around 24 tanks ( no that's not a typo!) He is selling them off prior to moving. He had this 29 set up as a salt tank. I believe that they currently sit as empties I do not know if there is live rock, but he does have sand( don't know if it's live sand or not). I'll learn more when I go see the tanks and ask more questions. Only been able to talk briefly on the phone.
If it's not live sand can live sand be introduced to the sand that is in there would populate the rest of the sand?
If there is live rock and they had sat dry is this to be of a concern or not?
Thanks for all the help that I have gotten so far. I'm sure I'll be asking lots more as I go through different stages of set up.

 

[socalnano24]

I'd recomend getting new live sand, you never know the condition of the stuf he has currently. If rock has been sitting dry then it is not live rock. It could be used as base rock after being rinsed thourougly and could be seeded with some good live rock. However this would possibly increase your cycle time to the 6-8 week range.

 

[mecc]

That is good to know, I wondered about the sand with not knowing what he had in the tank, if any bad things would house in the sand and lay dormant.
Is there a good brand (if such a thing) of live sand to look for or an online supplier?

 

[flukes]

What you could do is buy some Aragonite sand which is just a basic sand that is safe for our tanks and then buy a small amout of live sand (10 lbs.) to place on top of it. saltwaterfish.com sells live sand and from what I have heard it is really good, but kinda of pricey. If it is as good as what everyone says then im sure that it is worth it.
something to think about is if you are going to be able to have a sump? if so, then maybe you might want to have the tank drilled before setting it up. I just finished setting up a small tank and love how it turned out, take a look https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/368046/sharing-new-tank-build-with-pictures

 

[mecc]

ok what is the advantage to a sump? won't drilling the glass compromise the structure of it?
Geez I feel completely lost now, I thought I had things almost figured out til you throw me a curve lol.
I'm thinking that since this is my first go in the salt world, I may just keep things as simple and as basic as I can. Get my feet wet so to say.
Now live sand will have (I'm assuming on this), good bacteria as well as other things? Will that spread to the rest of the sand I put in?
Your tank doesn't look like it has a glass top on it, how do you keep the fish from jumping/go suicidal or is that even a concern?

 

[zsqure]

Most of us use light diffuser purchased from lowes or home dumpster to keep the carpet surfers at bay. We call it egg crate also. A sump allows you to keep pumps, heaters, skimmer, biomedia, maybe a fuge out of site and increase the water volume in your system leading to more stable water parameters.

 

[mecc]

I wouldn't even know where to get a tank drilled at. What happens if the the tank cracks during drilling you out a tank then?
how big of a sump pump do you need to run that type of filtration?
How big of holes would need to be drilled and where would be good places on the aquarium itself to place those holes? How many would need to be drilled?
Ok this one will sound very beginner, What is the point of have the "Egg crate" for a cover vs a glass lid or hood? ( I'm sure there is a logical reason)

 

[flukes]

Originally Posted by Mecc
http:///forum/post/3163443
ok what is the advantage to a sump? won't drilling the glass compromise the structure of it?
Geez I feel completely lost now, I thought I had things almost figured out til you throw me a curve lol.
I'm thinking that since this is my first go in the salt world, I may just keep things as simple and as basic as I can. Get my feet wet so to say.
Now live sand will have (I'm assuming on this), good bacteria as well as other things? Will that spread to the rest of the sand I put in?
Your tank doesn't look like it has a glass top on it, how do you keep the fish from jumping/go suicidal or is that even a concern?
I'm sorry Mecc, I hope that I'm not discouraging you. I just remember all of the money and time that I have wasted when I first started this hobby (though I did learn a lot) and wished that I planned ahead more.
Any "yes" buy adding live sand to Aragonite sand it will "seed" it, which simply means that the bacteria will spread to the non-living sand and turn it into live sand. In fact you could even skip adding live sand and just use aragonite because over time the bacteria will grow on it, but you lose the benefits of the small life forms that is found in live sand such as pods and different types of worms. But by skipping the lives sand it may take longer to cycle.
To keep my fish from jumping out of the tank, I post a sign on the inside of the tank that you cannot see in the picture that I post, the sign says "NO JUMPING!!!" Zsqure was right about placing a light diffuser on the top of the tank to keep the fish inside. A light diffuser is just a plastic sheet with square holes in it. It is a good idea to use one, but I don't, I just don't buy jumpy fish.
drilling the back of the tank is safe being that the glass is not tempered. If the glass is tempered, don't worry because after drilling it you will not be able to put water in it

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