Private Schools and evolutionary theory

2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/120#post_3531557
First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.....

The founding fathers were not trying to spread Christianity, many prominent founding fathers were desists not Christians, including Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence.


I believe this is what is being spread around today, Beth. The idea that many founding fathers were deists. There were a few notables but my understanding is that historians today are focusing on a small few vs the majority of the time.

Our forefathers were Christians, most of the people that were around by the time of our founding father showed up were still christian. But yet the founders saw fit to make amendments to the constitution (understandable, we should include everyone). But even then I feel that most believed in a higher moral power and education.

My point here really is the increase of frowning upon religious moral values being talked about in schools. When really this is what our nation was first built upon. Now a days you have a lot of families where both parents have to work or single parents who don't have the time to educate their kids in some type of higher moral regard. Therefor the newer generations fall further and further away from understanding the original plan, which has been the only plan in history where justice, peace and prosperity have shown to work. I feel like we're losing site of that now.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
I am curious if anyone has ever read the federalist papers and various other documents and letters our forefathers wrote during the founding of our country? I love how people point to jefferson or use words such as "several" of the founding fathers were diets or against religion.
It leaves the implication that a lot of the founding fathers were against and didnt support religious beliefs or faith. Which is couldn't be further from the truth and leaves out much of the true history of what was discussed and agreed upon during that time. It is akin to saying since the stock market is so high right now we are living in one of the largest economic booms in U.S. History.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531577
I am curious if anyone has ever read the federalist papers and various other documents and letters our forefathers wrote during the founding of our country?

Have you?


The founding fathers understood that the people that they were setting a government up for from scratch came to America because of religious persecution. Even though many of the founding fathers weren't especially religious, they understood the need to have the freedom of religion in the new world.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531578
Even though many of the founding fathers weren't especially religious

Actually, this is incorrect. We know so because at the time they used to record everyones particular faith in religion as though it were a part of their resume. It's all documented. Even Franklin, one of the most notable so called deists was not a deist for very long. He wasn't raised that way and didn't end up that way later in his life. His own words which have been well documented can easily disprove the deists claims and that his short stint with deism was more or less a rebellious faze he was going through. He very much so believed that God governed the affairs of man.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531577
I am curious if anyone has ever read the federalist papers and various other documents and letters our forefathers wrote during the founding of our country? I love how people point to jefferson or use words such as "several" of the founding fathers were diets or against religion.
It leaves the implication that a lot of the founding fathers were against and didnt support religious beliefs or faith. Which is couldn't be further from the truth and leaves out much of the true history of what was discussed and agreed upon during that time. It is akin to saying since the stock market is so high right now we are living in one of the largest economic booms in U.S. History.

It is not fair to say that "a lot of the founding fathers were against or didn't support religious beliefs". While they were a mixed bunch, there was certainly in many a strong belief in a God. There was also a strong belief that whether a person believes like them, or not, is nobody's business, especially the government's. Two hundred years of judicial decisions seem to have reinforced that view.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531580
He very much so believed that God governed the affairs of man.

This is absurd. God doesn't govern man; A certain group of men and women that we have voted into power governs the affairs of the majority of people. That's the way our system of government works.

God doesn't tell anyone to do anything, and if someone hears God speaking to them, quite literally, then they need to be evaluated at a psych ward.

Ok, lets give it to you that the majority of the founding fathers were religious. They still understood the freedom of religion - or the lack thereof. They didn't want any single church to rule in the government, and so they also understood the importance of the separation of church and state.

Therefore, my argument is that religion, in any form, should NEVER be taught by scholarly institutions funded by taxpayer money, unless its discussed appropriately in a theology class... which, by the way, will never happen in a public school because of the lack of proper funding.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeriDoc http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531582

It is not fair to say that "a lot of the founding fathers were against or didn't support religious beliefs". While they were a mixed bunch, there was certainly in many a strong belief in a God. There was also a strong belief that whether a person believes like them, or not, is nobody's business, especially the government's. Two hundred years of judicial decisions seem to have reinforced that view.

I wouldn't argue that. Most had faith, they just thought of religion and government as being in two separate spheres and that one particular faith shouldn't be lorded over another though the power of the state. They were a mixed bunch but in the end I think that the majority had firm beliefs in Jesus Christ, which IMO had to have had some influence in their political affairs. The forefathers gave us the blue print (born from christian beliefs), the founders erected the framework. One could even argue that the American Revolution was actually a religious war.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531583

This is absurd. God doesn't govern man; A certain group of men and women that we have voted into power governs the affairs of the majority of people. That's the way our system of government works.

God doesn't tell anyone to do anything, and if someone hears God speaking to them, quite literally, then they need to be evaluated at a psych ward.

Ok, lets give it to you that the majority of the founding fathers were religious. They still understood the freedom of religion - or the lack thereof. They didn't want any single church to rule in the government, and so they also understood the importance of the separation of church and state.

Therefore, my argument is that religion, in any form, should NEVER be taught by scholarly institutions funded by taxpayer money, unless its discussed appropriately in a theology class... which, by the way, will never happen in a public school because of the lack of proper funding.

There should be a clear difference between preaching in teaching, I agree. We're talking about history of religious influence in this country. No one said anything about God speaking directly to someone and telling them what to do or that is was the intent of our founders to lord that over anyone. Infact it's just the opposite. But my point is that with so many that had beliefs in Christianity at the time that those influences in some way shape or form had manifest themselves in their works. The Declaration of Independence makes about 4 references to God, after all.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

This is absurd. God doesn't govern man; A certain group of men and women that we have voted into power governs the affairs of the majority of people. That's the way our system of government works. 
God doesn't tell anyone to do anything, and if someone hears God speaking to them, quite literally, then they need to be evaluated at a psych ward.
Ok, lets give it to you that the majority of the founding fathers were religious. They still understood the freedom of religion - or the lack thereof. They didn't want any single church to rule in the government, and so they also understood the importance of the separation of church and state.
Therefore, my argument is that religion, in any form, should NEVER be taught by scholarly institutions funded by taxpayer money, unless its discussed appropriately in a theology class... which, by the way, will never happen in a public school because of the lack of proper funding. 
Answer to your earlier post, yes i have read many of them. Otherwise i wouldnt have brought it up.
I however do agree religion should not be taught in public shools. As there are a multitude of religious views concerning various topics. Having a teacher teach this that doesnt buy into the belief is counter productive. However i. A christian school these schools are based around these beliefs. Parents know this going in and understand what will be taught and presented in this case. It is a targeted audience and therefore must teach what the target audience wants taught.
If you sign up for a marine biology class should you be taught about koala bears? Expecting christian schools to teach that which isnt part of their curricullum is like expecting the cleveland browns to build a good football team.
The concet of freedom of religion or from religion has been taken to extremes. It's entire point is to prevent the government from supporting or instituting one single religion in a place of power or recieve backing from the government. It is in place to prevent our government from forcing the people to subjecate themselves to one religion, similar to what was going on in england at the time. This of course has been bastardized over the years. But this is why public schools do not and can not teach religious concepts. As public schools are a service provided by our government through tax payer money. Christian schools are usually paid for by the parents and thus fall out of the jurisdication of the government.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Even in Christian schools with common core standards, should half of every class be about their beliefs?

I went to two private schools growing up. The first one was Episcopalian. I went to that church every day, five days a week from Kindergarten to 8th grade. My parents are Catholic, and so I went to a Catholic church two days a week for service and on a Saturday night for choir practice. I then went to a private Catholic High School, and at least twice a week went to church at the school. I have been to countless hours of religious instruction in a school setting, and Bible class at home and through Sunday schools at various churches. I can remember growing up that in a classroom, we were taught the subject at hand. Science was Science, Reading was Reading, Math was Math and Religion class was Religion class. There was none of this mixing religion in with a lesson plan in any of the other subject areas.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Actually, this is incorrect.  We know so because at the time they used to record everyones particular faith in religion as though it were a part of their resume.  It's all documented.  Even Franklin, one of the most notable so called deists was not a deist for very long.  He wasn't raised that way and didn't end up that way later in his life.  His own words which have been well documented can easily disprove the deists claims and that his short stint with deism was more or less a rebellious faze he was going through.  He very much so believed that God governed the affairs of man.
To touch on this further, by 1787 Franklin was calling for leading openning prayers before the constitutional congretion.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Even in Christian schools with common core standards, should half of every class be about their beliefs?
I went to two private schools growing up. The first one was Episcopalian. I went to that church every day, five days a week from Kindergarten to 8th grade. My parents are Catholic, and so I went to a Catholic church two days a week for service and on a Saturday night for choir practice. I then went to a private Catholic High School, and at least twice a week went to church at the school. I have been to countless hours of religious instruction in a school setting, and Bible class at home and through Sunday schools at various churches. I can remember growing up that in a classroom, we were taught the subject at hand. Science was Science, Reading was Reading, Math was Math and Religion class was Religion class. There was none of this mixing religion in with a lesson plan in any of the other subject areas.
Even in Christian schools with common core standards, should half of every class be about their beliefs?
I went to two private schools growing up. The first one was Episcopalian. I went to that church every day, five days a week from Kindergarten to 8th grade. My parents are Catholic, and so I went to a Catholic church two days a week for service and on a Saturday night for choir practice. I then went to a private Catholic High School, and at least twice a week went to church at the school. I have been to countless hours of religious instruction in a school setting, and Bible class at home and through Sunday schools at various churches. I can remember growing up that in a classroom, we were taught the subject at hand. Science was Science, Reading was Reading, Math was Math and Religion class was Religion class. There was none of this mixing religion in with a lesson plan in any of the other subject areas.
In a private institution not funded by government or tax payer money, does anyone else have the right to dictate what and how anything is taught in that institution but the institution themselves. See the problem is you are placing an education you deem fit over someone elses freedoms. Which is how this country was founded. These institutions recieve no government funding, and therefore can teach that which they want. Even that a nose is really a penis.
Would you sacrifice freedoms of this country?
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531598
In a private institution not funded by government or tax payer money, does anyone else have the right to dictate what and how anything is taught in that institution but the institution themselves. See the problem is you are placing an education you deem fit over someone elses freedoms. Which is how this country was founded. These institutions recieve no government funding, and therefore can teach that which they want. Even that a nose is really a penis.
Would you sacrifice freedoms of this country?

You make a good point. ... I got nothing. And, in fact, I will try to be more open minded. Thank you, Darth.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

You make a good point. ... I got nothing. And, in fact, I will try to be more open minded. Thank you, Darth.
No problem.
Hold your beliefs and viewpoints. You aren't wrong about what should be taught in my opinion. But remember freedom is what made and will break this country. Freedom creates diversity, ideas, thoughts, beliefs, etc etc. without that freedom, everything remains stagnate.
I have a better question for educational debate. When the department of education was created, it was a result of our nation dropping to third place and then fourth place shortly there after. It was created to prevent our nation from a continued declin in education. We are something like 25th now.
Why has the department of education and our nation failed to prevent this continued slide?
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396331/private-schools-and-evolutionary-theory/140#post_3531601
Why has the department of education and our nation failed to prevent this continued slide?

Testing. The government is too concerned about testing students, that teachers don't get to teach essential knowledge and skills. 30 days a year are reserved for government testing. That's not including weekly tests administered by teachers. Our kids are tested to death, and the students have no results to learn from it.

It's also a major lack of funding. It's not because there aren't highly qualified teachers out there to do a job, but for the most part, in order to do a good job, supplies necessary to teach are not being provided by schools. Most teachers now have to rely upon what a video screen says or what is written in a text book. There is hardly any hands on learning and brain to paper connections being made anymore.

Also, it's the culture that we live in. A lot of the time, society celebrates ignorance and stupidity by giving them TV shows or clothing brands - and then our young people look up to it and want to emulate it. Smart students want to fit in as well, and therefore act like their peers.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Testing. The government is too concerned about testing students, that teachers don't get to teach essential knowledge and skills. 30 days a year are reserved for government testing. That's not including weekly tests administered by teachers. Our kids are tested to death, and the students have no results to learn from it. 
It's also a major lack of funding. It's not because there aren't highly qualified teachers out there to do a job, but for the most part, in order to do a good job, supplies necessary to teach are not being provided by schools. Most teachers now have to rely upon what a video screen says or what is written in a text book. There is hardly any hands on learning and brain to paper connections being made anymore.
Also, it's the culture that we live in. A lot of the time, society celebrates ignorance and stupidity by giving them TV shows or clothing brands - and then our young people look up to it and want to emulate it. Smart students want to fit in as well, and therefore act like their peers.
So this os why our college education system ranks number one in the world?
 
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