Problematic Ich-Beth/Sep

[al mc]

So far so good with the first week plus of copper. I keep waiting for an ammonia spike since I assume my 'good' bacteria should be all gone.
Questions:
Any thoughts on average time to see an ammonia spike after starting copper?
I test the copper level 2x daily and it has been at a stable therapeutic level..does it disspitate usually so that more needs to be added?
How long do I use copper for..the standard three weeks from
when all lesions are gone?
Thanks for any/all help

 

[beth]

First choice is always hypo, but after hypo fails, and the procedure seems to have been done correctly, then copper is the next alternative. You have to weigh the cons of the drug with the cons of a prolonged parasite infestation. Cupramine is a very good cooper choice, even for tangs. Very effective against ich, with min. detriment, especially if copper levels are kept at recommended levels, and optimum environment is maintained.
Are there still risks? Sure, but the parasite risks are much higher. Hypo fails, its time to get aggressive and get down to eliminating the parasite. Every day of ich, is another day of ich feeding off the tissues of your fish, risking secondary bacterial infections, etc., etc.
Additionally, hypo is ok for a month, but not ok for long term.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
So far so good with the first week plus of copper. I keep waiting for an ammonia spike since I assume my 'good' bacteria should be all gone.
Questions:
Any thoughts on average time to see an ammonia spike after starting copper?
I test the copper level 2x daily and it has been at a stable therapeutic level..does it disspitate usually so that more needs to be added?
How long do I use copper for..the standard three weeks from
when all lesions are gone?
Thanks for any/all help

3 weeks in copper after all signs of ich have disappeared.
If your tank is cycled, there shouldn't be a problem with cycle. I would do a small daily water change with copper treated water to maintain water quality. Maximum water circulation.
No it doesn't dissipate, which is why you don't want to add copper to your display. You are using Cupramine?

 

[al mc]

Yes, following your suggestion I purchased Cupramine. All is going well. Just my first experience with a copper product so I had a couple questions.
Also, I thought that if copper killed off all the bacteria that I would surely get an ammonia spike and have to do daily water changes with an appropriate amount of cupramine added to the new water? Not always true?

 

[beth]

The good about Cupramine is that it has minimum impact on the bio-filter.
Cal, we appreciate your trying to be helpful, but in all honesty we prefer that copied material not be posted at SWF. And, as far as this topic is concerned, Al is basically on his way to addressing his problem.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
I trust Beth completely
Lets say 99.9%.

jk

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Beth
Lets say 99.9%.

jk
Ah, you know I trust you Beth. I just don't like copper. I know that it is necessary at times. I would have personaly done another round of hypo, but this seems to be working for AL and I am very glad that it is.

 

[al mc]

Originally Posted by Beth
Lets say 99.9%.

jk
If you agreed 100% of the time I would think you were just one person using
different names...........

.......come to think of it....maybe all the mods are one person using different names to answer questions.....I shall ponder that for awhile

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
If you agreed 100% of the time I would think you were just one person using
different names...........

.......come to think of it....maybe all the mods are one person using different names to answer questions.....I shall ponder that for awhile

No, Beth and I are very different people, I assure you. We work together for the benefit of other hobbiests though. She has far more experience than I do. She was there when I was brand new to salt and helped me quite a bit, therefore I trust her very much.

 

[al mc]

Ok..maybe you are not the same person, but at least twins separated at birth

 

[pipo]

Ok people I know every body in this hobbie has once looked for an answer to saltwater Ick or any other parasite related disease that our fish are suffering of, and after loosing almost all of my fish I started reading Im a Med Student, and after trying everyyyyyyyy commercial fish medicine and getting few or no result at all I decided to look for human medicine for parasite after reading something about it on the internet. In the practice we are not supposed to medicate our main tank but once you have placed a sick fish in it the parasite is in the tank even if your fish don’t manifest it and you could have a problem any time that’s the reason it always recommended to have a quarantine tank and have your fish on observation for about 2 weeks before placing it in the main tank, now it is alson known that only 90% of people in this hobbie have QT tanks thefore this thread to kill any parasites for good you have to do this, when using the medicine Im talking about it kind of seem to work, the medicine Im talking about is Metronidazole, after using the dosage of 250mg per every 10 galls every 24 hours doing a 10% water change preferable every 3 days, it kind of controlled the parasite from growing even decreasing the amount of white spots or clouded eye in some cases and diminishing velveth but never killing the parasite at all, so then I went to my books and read about it it didn’t completely kill the parasite because the time the medicine works for at its best rating is only 12 hours then the action of the medicine decreases, so I applied the human dosage afraid for what it might cause to my fish, and nothing happened the second day applying 250mg of Metronidazole every 12 hours my fish where like NEW hahaha, it was like nothing happened to them they were happy like always, and feeding with no problem, I have anemones and crabs and 2 cleaners and they didn’t even act a little different they were the same all the time, I haven’t try it on Corals, but the action of the Metronidazole Should NOT kill the Corals, because it acts only on Parasites and some Bacteria the way to apply the metronidazole is:
Before treatment remove carbon bags and UV light filter. (not an option remove it)
250mg for every 10 gallons
It would be good if you do a 10% water change every 3 days
Apply the treatment for 10 days.
After treatment do a 20% water Change
Put back in carbon to remove what ever is left of the metronidazole for 3 days
Then turn back on the UV light filter.
You will have happy fish and a healthy SaltWater Fish Tank.
Hope you find this helpful I hope to hear back from you.
Eli.

 

[al mc]

Eli, Thanks for the info. As you can see Ich can become quite a fun!?! topic around the swf message boards.
I will keep all posted....2 weeks into treatment all goes well. My biologic
filter is still intact (almost afraid to mention that as I do not want to 'jinx' myslef) and the two fish..Hippo Tang and clown are eating and active.

 

[jasonmarc]

LOL I'm sure this won't be taken in the nature intended, but D-MN that is quite the run on sentence for a med student!

Originally Posted by PIPO
Ok people I know every body in this hobbie has once looked for an answer to saltwater Ick or any other parasite related disease that our fish are suffering of, and after loosing almost all of my fish I started reading Im a Med Student, and after trying everyyyyyyyy commercial fish medicine and getting few or no result at all I decided to look for human medicine for parasite after reading something about it on the internet. In the practice we are not supposed to medicate our main tank but once you have placed a sick fish in it the parasite is in the tank even if your fish don’t manifest it and you could have a problem any time that’s the reason it always recommended to have a quarantine tank and have your fish on observation for about 2 weeks before placing it in the main tank, now it is alson known that only 90% of people in this hobbie have QT tanks thefore this thread to kill any parasites for good you have to do this, when using the medicine Im talking about it kind of seem to work, the medicine Im talking about is Metronidazole, after using the dosage of 250mg per every 10 galls every 24 hours doing a 10% water change preferable every 3 days, it kind of controlled the parasite from growing even decreasing the amount of white spots or clouded eye in some cases and diminishing velveth but never killing the parasite at all, so then I went to my books and read about it it didn’t completely kill the parasite because the time the medicine works for at its best rating is only 12 hours then the action of the medicine decreases, so I applied the human dosage afraid for what it might cause to my fish, and nothing happened the second day applying 250mg of Metronidazole every 12 hours my fish where like NEW hahaha, it was like nothing happened to them they were happy like always, and feeding with no problem, I have anemones and crabs and 2 cleaners and they didn’t even act a little different they were the same all the time, I haven’t try it on Corals, but the action of the Metronidazole Should NOT kill the Corals, because it acts only on Parasites and some Bacteria the way to apply the metronidazole is:
Before treatment remove carbon bags and UV light filter. (not an option remove it)
250mg for every 10 gallons
It would be good if you do a 10% water change every 3 days
Apply the treatment for 10 days.
After treatment do a 20% water Change
Put back in carbon to remove what ever is left of the metronidazole for 3 days
Then turn back on the UV light filter.
You will have happy fish and a healthy SaltWater Fish Tank.
Hope you find this helpful I hope to hear back from you.
Eli.

 

[al mc]

Closing in on 3 weeks (in a days) of the Cupramine. All is going well. Clown and Hippo appear fine, eating well. Still have the biologic filter intact.
Questions: 1. Do I use cuprasorb or can I just empty out the water of the QT, change filters ,and reset up for future use?
2. Can fish just go into the Dt or do you suggest a week without copper in normal salinity QT?
Thanks al

 

[beth]

And just to be clear, most animal medications, including fish meds, are also human medications.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
Closing in on 3 weeks (in a days) of the Cupramine. All is going well. Clown and Hippo appear fine, eating well. Still have the biologic filter intact.
Questions: 1. Do I use cuprasorb or can I just empty out the water of the QT, change filters ,and reset up for future use?
2. Can fish just go into the Dt or do you suggest a week without copper in normal salinity QT?
Thanks al
You won't be able to use that qt again for anything other than fish. You can empty the water and refill for future use. Is your display a reef? I'm sorry, I forgot. If so then you may want to do a good sized water change to dilute the copper. Do you net your fish or use a container? Certainly don't let any of the QT water into the display, no matter if it is FO or a reef.

 

[al mc]

Beth..Can't figure your last comment about animal meds vs human meds....did I miss something?

Sep....Reef tank DT. The QT will only be used for fish in the future

My concern was how much copper the fish can carry in on them...How long will signiificant amount of copper stay 'in' the fish. I was prepared to do DT water change, using the 'old' water to fill up the QT tank after cleaning and then leaving the 'copper fish' in the QT for another week..testing for residual copper daily in the QT...enough of a safeguard against copper getting into my DT? Thanks

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
Beth..Can't figure your last comment about animal meds vs human meds....did I miss something?

Sep....Reef tank DT. The QT will only be used for fish in the future

My concern was how much copper the fish can carry in on them...How long will signiificant amount of copper stay 'in' the fish. I was prepared to do DT water change, using the 'old' water to fill up the QT tank after cleaning and then leaving the 'copper fish' in the QT for another week..testing for residual copper daily in the QT...enough of a safeguard against copper getting into my DT? Thanks

Yes, that will be enough. Copper soaks into pourous objects such as rock, sand, and silicone. It will leech out later. Being this is a reef tank, I would add the Cuprisorb or use fresh carbon after the water change. Test the water. Do you net the fish or use a container? You will have to drip acclimate them all back into the DT no matter what water you use. Please tell me how you move your fish.

 

[al mc]

Sep...I drip acclimate eveything. Just did not know if there was any rule of thumb on how long the copper stays within the fish, not just the water or porous areas like rock.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
Sep...I drip acclimate eveything. Just did not know if there was any rule of thumb on how long the copper stays within the fish, not just the water or porous areas like rock.
How do you catch the fish though? Do you net them or use a container? Being that they are going into a reef, I would keep them in for another week and be sure to do the water changes and use cuprizorb or carbon to remove all of the copper that you can. How long has it been that your display was fishless? It should be six weeks, but a little longer is better. Are your fish stressed out by the qt tank at all? It hasn't sounded like they are. As long as the water reads zero for copper then there is no need to worry when you return them to the display.