Problems with pH...HELP!!!

asharp13

asharp13

Member
Hi there,
I have been in the hobby for over 6mos with my little 24gal nano and have always had problems with my pH. i have been doing a lot of reading lately about how magnesium, calcium, and alkalinity have a lot to do with the pH stability of your reef. of what i have read, most articles are a little too scientific for me to completely get my head around and i was wondering if anyone here could dumb it down for me?
lately my pH has been quite low and ive added buffer but for some reason it just gets absorbed and has no effect on the overall pH of the tank. does this mean something else is in excess? obviously something is way off because ive been noticing my fish breathing heavy and looking sluggish so i am doing a water change tomorrow morning and then a complete test in the afternoon when the new water mixes in completely to update you on my exact parameters.
if anyone has any ideas on the cause of this or can explain to me the relationship between magnesium, calcium, and alkalinity it would be of much help!!!Thanks a bunch!!!!!
 
posiden

posiden

Active Member
I have to wonder about the airation of your water and or, the levels of CO2 in your house.
You can take a cup of your tank water and airate it for about an hour with a aquarium air pump. Test the PH on it after the hour is up. If it goes up then you need to get more O2 into your tank. If it only goes up a small amount, then let it airate for another hour outside, in the garage,ect. If the PH goes up more, then you have a build up of CO2 in your home. If neither of these work, then you have eleminated O2 from being one of the causes of your low PH. It will then be time to look at something else.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Posiden has the best step 1. Most PH problems are excess CO2 from various reasons like overstocking, indoor air, insufficient waterflow, etc. Also make sure your skimmer is operating correctly. An underfunctioning skimmer is often the cause of low PH.
Secondary would be metabolic acids from decaying organic material. See what a 50% water change does. Check for detritus and dirty mechanical filters.
Third would be low Alkalinity. Since you are adding buffer with no permanent affect I would suggest that your Alkalinity isn't low. I would recommend that you never add a PH buffer to your tank unless you have tested Alkalinity and it is, indeed, low.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3169188
Posiden has the best step 1. Most PH problems are excess CO2 from various reasons like overstocking, indoor air, insufficient waterflow, etc. Also make sure your skimmer is operating correctly. An underfunctioning skimmer is often the cause of low PH.
Secondary would be metabolic acids from decaying organic material. See what a 50% water change does. Check for detritus and dirty mechanical filters.
Third would be low Alkalinity. Since you are adding buffer with no permanent affect I would suggest that your Alkalinity isn't low. I would recommend that you never add a PH buffer to your tank unless you have tested Alkalinity and it is, indeed, low.

I have been in this hobby for 4 years, and I too have the exact same problem as asharp13. From day 1.
I was told that RO water is so pure that as you top off it just does'nt hold up the PH an Alk as it should.
Thats the over my head part...I was told to add a buffer to the RO water that I top off with...I did, and everything is stable now. Others dose the with a "kalk" drip????
So in spite of all the list you put together as cause, excess CO2...

How does the RO water fit in your senopsis, and why does dosing the RO top off water help?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3169256

I have been in this hobby for 4 years, and I too have the exact same problem as asharp13. From day 1.
I was told that RO water is so pure that as you top off it just does'nt hold up the PH an Alk as it should. %% Thats the over my head part...I was told to add a buffer to the RO water that I top off with...I did, and everything is stable now. Others dose the with a "kalk" drip????
So in spite of all the list you put together as cause, excess CO2...

How does the RO water fit in your senopsis, and why does dosing the RO top off water help?
The PH of RO used for topoff is irrelevant. You're not adding a significant amount of water, or at least you shouldn't be. If your Alkalinity is low then adding an alkalinity additive, such as a "PH Buffer" will raise or maintain Alkalinity. If Alkalinity is already high then buffering your RO water will cause it to rise even more and this can cause problems.
Never buffer RO that's going to be used to mix up new saltwater. This is ALWAYS a bad idea.
 
asharp13

asharp13

Member
alright so i just tested my parameters and they are as follows:
pH:7.8
dKH: 8-9
Calcium: 450-500
Mag: 1250
i have noticed that when my pH is low my fish breath very heavy, which is happening now. also, when my pH is low my corals look haggard but recently they have all looked great even though my pH has recently been low. so i am wondering where my problem is. i think that excess CO2 is my problem as all my other leels are in line and approx where they should be.
in terms of adding an airstone to my nano: i have read everywhere that buffles in a reef tank are bad. should i put this airstone in the back compartment and make sure bubbles arent released into the tank? this is what i will try tonight and ill check the pH in the morning to see if it has risen. is there are ill side effects of running this airstone? if it does infact work, is there a timeline as to when i should take it out?
thx again for the help you all are great!!!!
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member

My Alkalinity is always low...why? What eats up alk to cause it to drop? When I buffer my RO for ATO only...all readings are right...how come?
This is very important..dummy it down big time so I can understand it.
I do have a very complicated magnesium test...last reading was in the 1400 range.
It is time for my regular water change and I would like to understand what is going on with PH drops, but I just don't get it. I never buffer water for water changes, only the top off water...so I am not sure why you warned me for that...maybe just to cover all bases.
I know the moment my water quality is off...I have a cabbage coral, I have named "Early Warning"...anything off and it draws right up. I do the water tests and sure enough..PH and Alk is low again. why...

Last Sundays readings were:
Ph 8.2 ( I like 8.4 but this is acceptable) it was 8.4 last week????
Alk 1.6 (very low) my test kit says should be around 2.5
Ammonia 0
Nitrates 20
Phosphates 0.2
Calcium 500
 
asharp13

asharp13

Member
Flower:
Heres an article i found:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php
this stuff is so complicated and even this dumbed down version is quite difficult to understand...but the pictures really help!!! i honestly still have no clue what is going on but you may be able to understand this!! i kinda did. what my opinion is is to keep doing water changes and dose your tank slowly. overdosing one element will just casue the depletion of another. i think it is hard to have every parameter in the 'ZONE' but IMO if you have 3-4/5 your doing pretty good. i always strive for perfection but i have found that it is darn near impossible!!!!
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by asharp13
http:///forum/post/3169469
Flower:
Heres an article i found:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-06/rhf/index.php
this stuff is so complicated and even this dumbed down version is quite difficult to understand...but the pictures really help!!! i honestly still have no clue what is going on but you may be able to understand this!! i kinda did. what my opinion is is to keep doing water changes and dose your tank slowly. overdosing one element will just casue the depletion of another. i think it is hard to have every parameter in the 'ZONE' but IMO if you have 3-4/5 your doing pretty good. i always strive for perfection but i have found that it is darn near impossible!!!!

Such a sweetie...I am just curious because my Alk and PH stays good if I dose with buffer on my RO water that is used for top offs...Bang Guy, whom I consider pretty smart indeed, said it was irrelevant.
My cabbage (AKA Early Warning) is happy now, and the rest of my coral never complained ..LOL My fish and inverts are happy. I really don't have a "worry" just an inability to understand...the WHY...Alk and PH does keep dropping and I have to keep dosing so something is off. I do water changes, but CO2??.. Carbon monoxide, I think. what causes that? None of Bang guys list matches my tank.
So what makes my Alk drop?
I have to go to work now, so I will check back in the morning if some further understanding can be found while I was gone. I don't have time right now to read from the link you posted...I will check it out when I get home.
Thank You for sharing your thread.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
This thread got slightly derailed but I can answer the ALK question. When I said irrelevant, I meant the PH of your topoff water is irrelevant. There is a really good reason to add an Alkalinity additive to your topoff water. Maintaining Alkalinity is that reason, artificially raising PH is not.
A combination of High PH and high Calcium can supress Alk. Your Ca isn't excessively high so that's not the problem.
CO2 = Carbon dioxide. All of the animals in your tank produce CO2 as do the algae when the lights are off. In addition, if your house is sealed up tight for the winter you and your family produce CO2 and can actually affect the CO2 level on the water. CO2 dissolved in water produced Carbonic Acid and this is what causes low PH when there is excessive CO2 in the water.
My initial guess for you Flower is that you have corals building skeleton or sclerites and consuming Carbonate. Carbonate is the primary component of Alkalinity. So, as corals grow, alkalinity is reduced and must be replaced by water changes or dosing (such as adding a "PH buffer" to topoff water
).
So what makes my Alk drop?
Although alkalinity is consumed at about the same rate as Calcium it seems to drop fast because the starting point is lower. For example, if you start at 2.5 Meq/L (about Natural seawater levels), that's 125ppm alkalinity (7 dKH). Watch how ALK drops as corals consume Calcium at 20ppm per day:
CA_____ALK
500ppm 125ppm - Day1
480ppm 105ppm - Day2
460ppm 85ppm - Day3
440ppm 65ppm - Day4 <--- Corals will stop growing at this point because there is not enough Carbonate present to build Calcium carbonate. They may actually begin to dissolve and this will make them very unhappy.
420ppm 45ppm - Day5 <--- delicate corals will begin to die at this level of Alkalinity. In addition, PH may begin to fluctuate and this will affect most of the other animals in the system as well.
So, adding an alkalinity additive to your topoff water is a really good way to maintain Alkalinity as long as alkalinity is not already too high.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3169641
This thread got slightly derailed but I can answer the ALK question. When I said irrelevant, I meant the PH of your topoff water is irrelevant. There is a really good reason to add an Alkalinity additive to your topoff water. Maintaining Alkalinity is that reason, artificially raising PH is not.
A combination of High PH and high Calcium can supress Alk. Your Ca isn't excessively high so that's not the problem.
CO2 = Carbon dioxide. All of the animals in your tank produce CO2 as do the algae when the lights are off. In addition, if your house is sealed up tight for the winter you and your family produce CO2 and can actually affect the CO2 level on the water. CO2 dissolved in water produced Carbonic Acid and this is what causes low PH when there is excessive CO2 in the water.
My initial guess for you Flower is that you have corals building skeleton or sclerites and consuming Carbonate. Carbonate is the primary component of Alkalinity. So, as corals grow, alkalinity is reduced and must be replaced by water changes or dosing (such as adding a "PH buffer" to topoff water
).
Although alkalinity is consumed at about the same rate as Calcium it seems to drop fast because the starting point is lower. For example, if you start at 2.5 Meq/L (about Natural seawater levels), that's 125ppm alkalinity (7 dKH). Watch how ALK drops as corals consume Calcium at 20ppm per day:
CA_____ALK
500ppm 125ppm - Day1
480ppm 105ppm - Day2
460ppm 85ppm - Day3
440ppm 65ppm - Day4 <--- Corals will stop growing at this point because there is not enough Carbonate present to build Calcium carbonate. They may actually begin to dissolve and this will make them very unhappy.
420ppm 45ppm - Day5 <--- delicate corals will begin to die at this level of Alkalinity. In addition, PH may begin to fluctuate and this will affect most of the other animals in the system as well.
So, adding an alkalinity additive to your topoff water is a really good way to maintain Alkalinity as long as alkalinity is not already too high.

Bang Guy! You are my hero! I actually undersood that! It also solved my mystery, I now understand the WHY my Alk is low, it's because my corals are growing!
So that explains why everything looks happy, but Alk keeps dropping. I will keep a close eye on my levels and only dose a buffer in the top off water if needed, which is what I have been doing.
i am going to make a hard copy of this post for reference...Thank you!
 
asharp13

asharp13

Member
Great explanation bang!!! That really cleared a lot of things up for me also. I am still a little confused about pH. I understand the CO2 concept completely but I thought that cal, alk, and mag also had an influence on pH. Is that true? If so, will bring one parameter up consequently raise/lower pH?
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by asharp13
http:///forum/post/3169879
Great explanation bang!!! That really cleared a lot of things up for me also. I am still a little confused about pH. I understand the CO2 concept completely but I thought that cal, alk, and mag also had an influence on pH. Is that true? If so, will bring one parameter up consequently raise/lower pH?

Bang did so well on Alk question....I can't wait for the teaching on PH...
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
FWIW, I had ph around 7.8 continuously also. Someone here recommended in a thread that there needed to be better gas exchange on the surface; ie they needed to have more surface movement. I put an HOB Skilter on my 125g and I have a fairly constant 8.3 ph.
 
asharp13

asharp13

Member
mantis:
1st what does FWIW stand for? also, last night i added an airstone to the back compartment of my 24gal nano. my powerhead is pointed towards the surface...has been for weeks...and i checked tonight and i have seen no change in my pH. any thoughts?
bang: as for the CO2 and pH issue. since your thinking may be around the high concentration of CO2 in my house/room where my tank is, is the airstone the answer? my thoughts is that it is pulling CO2 rich air from the room and pumping that into the tank instead of pure O2 doesnt do much good. is that the right thinking? why has the addition of the airstone made no change to my tanks pH???
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by asharp13
http:///forum/post/3170031
mantis:
1st what does FWIW stand for? also, last night i added an airstone to the back compartment of my 24gal nano. my powerhead is pointed towards the surface...has been for weeks...and i checked tonight and i have seen no change in my pH. any thoughts?
bang: as for the CO2 and pH issue. since your thinking may be around the high concentration of CO2 in my house/room where my tank is, is the airstone the answer? my thoughts is that it is pulling CO2 rich air from the room and pumping that into the tank instead of pure O2 doesnt do much good. is that the right thinking? why has the addition of the airstone made no change to my tanks pH???
FWIW = For what it's worth
Take some water outside and aerate it there. If the PH rises then there's a good chance it's just the air in your house and you're going to have to accept the PH the way it is.
 
asharp13

asharp13

Member
bang i am really at a loss. i live in boulder, CO...some of the freshest air around!!! is there anything i can do to supplement the lack of O2 in the air?
is there a relationship between mag, calc, alk, and pH? do high levels of the first 3 elements supress pH?
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3170112
If the PH drops then there's a good chance it's just the air in your house and you're going to have to accept the PH the way it is.
I think you mean if the pH rises.
I ran an airpump from outside to my tank during Texas summers.
 
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