sunnyspony
Member
I have a porcupine puffer that has not eaten in 2 days. He seems to have restricted movement with his jaw. I feed him Krill, beefheart, and formula two. What's the deal? 
Puffer will not eat
- Thread starter sunnyspony
- Start date
pufferlover
Active Member
Ok; here is what I need to know to try and help. How long have you had the Puff and what exactly do you feed it. There was a great post on this by trey on 7-23-01 which I will quote a bit for you.
"Puffers that eat too much soft food will often get "lockjaw" from having their teeth grow to big".I would add here that altho not mentioned in that post another problem is that if they don't use their jaw muscles to chew then they can also lock from lack of use- this happens more often then the teeth problem- but end result is about the same. What you said you feed is soft food and that caught my eye and I have discussed this problem many times on my other site. A Puffer should have CC to chew on or mine even like to chew on airstones that I have hanging in their tank as part of a emergency back up air pump system. I also drop in some tetra min tablets and shrimp pellets for them to chew on in order to use their jaw muscles. I had one valentini that developed the long tooth problem but have never had a Pork or Dog have this or the Jaw muscle problem since I start them off from day one with things to chew on. As long as yours seems to still be able to open and close its mouth (if you can tell since it hasn't eaten) then you have time to correct the problem. When you say restricted jaw movement is that something you can tell or something you assume because it hasn't eaten (I am not being tough here just need the facts as Sgt, Friday used to say). Give us a bit more and lets see where we go. One last thing is it interested in food at all or does it ignore it?
One more thing I will be away from my puter for a hour or two starting now but will check your post when I come back so if you answer I can try to help you some more tonight. You are same area as I so figure I'll be back on about 10:30 tonight.
[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]
"Puffers that eat too much soft food will often get "lockjaw" from having their teeth grow to big".I would add here that altho not mentioned in that post another problem is that if they don't use their jaw muscles to chew then they can also lock from lack of use- this happens more often then the teeth problem- but end result is about the same. What you said you feed is soft food and that caught my eye and I have discussed this problem many times on my other site. A Puffer should have CC to chew on or mine even like to chew on airstones that I have hanging in their tank as part of a emergency back up air pump system. I also drop in some tetra min tablets and shrimp pellets for them to chew on in order to use their jaw muscles. I had one valentini that developed the long tooth problem but have never had a Pork or Dog have this or the Jaw muscle problem since I start them off from day one with things to chew on. As long as yours seems to still be able to open and close its mouth (if you can tell since it hasn't eaten) then you have time to correct the problem. When you say restricted jaw movement is that something you can tell or something you assume because it hasn't eaten (I am not being tough here just need the facts as Sgt, Friday used to say). Give us a bit more and lets see where we go. One last thing is it interested in food at all or does it ignore it?
One more thing I will be away from my puter for a hour or two starting now but will check your post when I come back so if you answer I can try to help you some more tonight. You are same area as I so figure I'll be back on about 10:30 tonight.
[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]
sunnyspony
Member
I feed hm whole frozen Krill which I have had to break up to get him to try to grab it. I have tried frozen beefheart, and frozen formula two which I chop up in small pieces. He is interested in food, he cant open his mouth wide enough to get it in.
pufferlover
Active Member
Before I went off I looked for a quick post that a member of my other ( a vet ass't) place wrote regarding this subject.
" here's the less scientific explanation; When eating gooshy foods like Krill they don't use their jaw muscles, thus from lack of use it remains in the same place for a long period of time. Because of this calcium builds up in the joint until it is no longer a joint, but fused bone. This happens to other animals as well, but usually due to trauma sustanined to the joint rather then lack of use."
You answered some of the questions I posed but still need how long you have had it and its size at this time (approx). Ok be back in a bit.
" here's the less scientific explanation; When eating gooshy foods like Krill they don't use their jaw muscles, thus from lack of use it remains in the same place for a long period of time. Because of this calcium builds up in the joint until it is no longer a joint, but fused bone. This happens to other animals as well, but usually due to trauma sustanined to the joint rather then lack of use."
You answered some of the questions I posed but still need how long you have had it and its size at this time (approx). Ok be back in a bit.
sunnyspony
Member
Sorry, asleep at the wheel. I have had him for about six months, he's apprx. 5 inches long.
pufferlover
Active Member
Ok what I have done so far is e mail the vet ass't who wrote that quote regarding the jaw lock and asking if she knows any steps that can be taken if it truly is that problem. I probably will not get a answer till tomorrow (she is very good at responding to me) but as soon as I do I will post it. I have never seen any remedy for this and if it is a fused jaw then how could there be one. Yet altho I have heard and read about this I have never met anyone or any lfs I visit tell me they have ever seen it. Now again we are assuming that this is the problem and yet it could be something else so while I try to find out more consider this and think about the following;
Has the fish any spots on its fins at all (some Puffs always have a few so don't panic if you see some)
Did it run into anything in the tank that you know of (any rocks, decorations found in wrong place or toppled over.
Has it ever gone off its food for a few days before while you have had it.
Does it seem excited when you appear with food or just swim around not paying attention to it.
Do you see any signs of damage or trauma around its mouth at all
Last thought does it seem to have gotten fatter around the mid section in the last week or two (I'll get into that if it has)
Anyway hang in I'll do my best for you.
Has the fish any spots on its fins at all (some Puffs always have a few so don't panic if you see some)
Did it run into anything in the tank that you know of (any rocks, decorations found in wrong place or toppled over.
Has it ever gone off its food for a few days before while you have had it.
Does it seem excited when you appear with food or just swim around not paying attention to it.
Do you see any signs of damage or trauma around its mouth at all
Last thought does it seem to have gotten fatter around the mid section in the last week or two (I'll get into that if it has)
Anyway hang in I'll do my best for you.
pufferlover
Active Member
OK here is her response to the problem.
"Well it could be a genetic thing. It is mostly common to Puffers and other types of jawfish. Hopefully it is just a muscular thing since it is so young. Chances are it hasn't learned to use those jaw muscles very well yet. Advise them to use the baby feeder thing you did (more from me on that after this response)but tell him to do small doses as it is so young. If it comes around then they need to get it on harder shelled foods...if they give it mysis shrimp as treats tell them to leave the shell on. Also let's get it on tetra pellets too.
Tell them this is where patience pays off in this hobby."
This again is from a lady in my Puff club that is studying to be a vet and works for one as a assistant at the moment.
Now for what she meant about the baby feeding thing.
About 6 or 8 months ago I had a real problem with my 2 large mated Puff pair who contracted a bad case of Ick after being boarded at my lfs for 9 weeks while their new tank was on order (old one sprung a leak and they were too big for anything else I had to use then). They both stopped feeding at all at one point and after a couple of weeks I had no idea how to get food into them when this same lady came up with a idea that I thought was crazy but by goodness it did work with the smaller female Pork (the male held off 4 weeks but after a copper treatment he came back from near dead to perfect health as did the female). I went to Walgreens bought a plastic baby syringe for giving medicine (I know this sounds crazy but follow along). I then took some formula 1 & 2 cubes minced them up in water and filled the syringe about 3/4 full (then came what I thought was to be the hard part). I opened the tank lid and stuck the syringe in about half its length so I could control the plunger part. I could not believe it the female came up to it put her lips around it and I gently filled her up. Now the male would have no part of this procedure I chased its butt all over that tank for days and never got close- thats when I figured it is up to him now I tried). The female would do this whenever I stuck the syringe in (and mind you this a 125 gallon tank they are in). After about 3 days she went back to feeding her self (I would try some smaller food each day to see what they would do but just a bit as not to foul the tank). Now one last thing make sure it is a plastic syringe, as when I first tried dumb old me tried a glass one I had she bit the end off scaring me half to death. They cost about 2 bucks for 2 and I keep one at the ready for future use.
If you like you can click on my homepage and send her any other question you have. She is called Lady Of Darkness (cool mysterious name but a lovely person and very caring).
I hope this helps I have tried everything I know to get you a reasonable sensible answer because if this truly the problem it is the first case I have heard of this actually happening. I really want to follow this thru so let me know what is happening as it can be helpful to others in the future.
Now one last thing I have sort of ruled out the teeth problem as it is really more prevelant (and quite a bit more noticeable in the Dogs and Sharpnose species), the Porks sort of have as I call them lips so their teeth are hard to see and unless they had really grown huge you could not tell (and yours is to young for that in my mind). So keep us up to date and good luck to you.
"Well it could be a genetic thing. It is mostly common to Puffers and other types of jawfish. Hopefully it is just a muscular thing since it is so young. Chances are it hasn't learned to use those jaw muscles very well yet. Advise them to use the baby feeder thing you did (more from me on that after this response)but tell him to do small doses as it is so young. If it comes around then they need to get it on harder shelled foods...if they give it mysis shrimp as treats tell them to leave the shell on. Also let's get it on tetra pellets too.
Tell them this is where patience pays off in this hobby."
This again is from a lady in my Puff club that is studying to be a vet and works for one as a assistant at the moment.
Now for what she meant about the baby feeding thing.
About 6 or 8 months ago I had a real problem with my 2 large mated Puff pair who contracted a bad case of Ick after being boarded at my lfs for 9 weeks while their new tank was on order (old one sprung a leak and they were too big for anything else I had to use then). They both stopped feeding at all at one point and after a couple of weeks I had no idea how to get food into them when this same lady came up with a idea that I thought was crazy but by goodness it did work with the smaller female Pork (the male held off 4 weeks but after a copper treatment he came back from near dead to perfect health as did the female). I went to Walgreens bought a plastic baby syringe for giving medicine (I know this sounds crazy but follow along). I then took some formula 1 & 2 cubes minced them up in water and filled the syringe about 3/4 full (then came what I thought was to be the hard part). I opened the tank lid and stuck the syringe in about half its length so I could control the plunger part. I could not believe it the female came up to it put her lips around it and I gently filled her up. Now the male would have no part of this procedure I chased its butt all over that tank for days and never got close- thats when I figured it is up to him now I tried). The female would do this whenever I stuck the syringe in (and mind you this a 125 gallon tank they are in). After about 3 days she went back to feeding her self (I would try some smaller food each day to see what they would do but just a bit as not to foul the tank). Now one last thing make sure it is a plastic syringe, as when I first tried dumb old me tried a glass one I had she bit the end off scaring me half to death. They cost about 2 bucks for 2 and I keep one at the ready for future use.
If you like you can click on my homepage and send her any other question you have. She is called Lady Of Darkness (cool mysterious name but a lovely person and very caring).
I hope this helps I have tried everything I know to get you a reasonable sensible answer because if this truly the problem it is the first case I have heard of this actually happening. I really want to follow this thru so let me know what is happening as it can be helpful to others in the future.
Now one last thing I have sort of ruled out the teeth problem as it is really more prevelant (and quite a bit more noticeable in the Dogs and Sharpnose species), the Porks sort of have as I call them lips so their teeth are hard to see and unless they had really grown huge you could not tell (and yours is to young for that in my mind). So keep us up to date and good luck to you.
sunnyspony
Member
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!!!!! I will check back with you and let you know the progress
pufferlover
Active Member
Glad you got post. I was off today and when I got reply did your post figuring if you are like me when you got home from work you would check your puter first thing.
pufferlover
Active Member
Sunny;Whats happening I am really interested in how it is going with your Puff.
sunnyspony
Member
Sorry it took me so long. I went to Osco last week and bought a small syringe. Tried feeding him, he's more interested in starting at it. So far no luck.
I will keep you posted, Thank you
I will keep you posted, Thank you
pufferlover
Active Member
Well at the moment I am doing that feeding bit with my baby stars and stripes and so far he has gone with the program. I just wait till he is settled somewhere then put the syringe on its mouth and it opens it and I put the syringe end just slightly in the mouth and slowly push the food in. This is the second time I have tried this with a Puffer fish (the last was months ago with my Big Pork Female) and they seem to go for it. The S & S is eating on its own but every few days it stops and I force feed it for one feeding. I am sure the hypo is throwing it off as I am still trying to get it dropped to where I need it to be. I realize it is something that seems silly but it has worked for me on 2 out 3 Puffers I tried it on.
pufferdaddy
New Member
I had this same problem around a month ago or so. Did this happen suddenly? Like overnight?? I had a slight ich problem so I removed my live rock and added coppersafe. When I did this I had a slight ammonia spike. I'm almost posative this is what caused my problems because it started as soon as the ammonia was present...like overnight. My puffer is about the same size as yours and I've had him about the same amount of time, but mine's a stars and stripes. It's been two or three weeks now and he's back to normal..eating like a pig. Has your tank been contaminated in any way lately?? Any big changes made?? If he's still interested in the food I'd keep trying what he's interested in cut in real small pieces.
pufferlover
Active Member
Looking at pufferdaddy's post reminded about one other thing. When my large Male Pork was ill it did not eat for a full 4 weeks. Twice I told my wife it will be dead by morning, but altho real sick I kept working on him and finally 6 weeks after the outbreak of Ick which started the problems he and his mate were back in shape and eating again. Moral is that fish can go quite some time before they are in real trouble from lack of food. The fact they stop eating (esp. Puffs) is that something is wrong, then the problem is finding out what and fixing it. Altho mine would not eat I tried every day until one day it just started eating again and believe me that made my best day ever in this hobby (those 2 are my favorites and always have been).
sunnyspony
Member
My puffer has only had ich once, about 4 months ago. There is only one other fish in the tank, no live rock, basically nothing but two fish. They both, for the most part act normal, except for the lack of food for the puffer. The water quality is fine.
Still will not eat, I put the syringe in the tank today, he made more of a attempt today to grab it, but still no luck.
Still will not eat, I put the syringe in the tank today, he made more of a attempt today to grab it, but still no luck.
pufferlover
Active Member
Got to keep working it if the fish wants food it will get the idea of the syringe soon enough. I assume you are trying a little regular food first each time to see if it starts on its own. In my case the S & S will open its mouth for the syringe one day but not the next, as long as I get any food in it I am satisfied. Tried Mysis shrimp tonight that didn't work to well it is to big to come out the syringe quickly enough. The Blackworms tho and the crushed formula 1 cubes work the best. Keep us informed I keep checking for your posts. If you get into a real bind let me know you and I live in same area (chgo) me north you south I believe and I will arrange for us to get in contact about all this.
blueberryboomer
Active Member
Pufflover, first off just want to say you are awesome.....We sound alot alike, I will do anything to save a pet.
Second, have your mated pair of puffs every had babies for you? What kind are they?
I would love one day to have a tank with just puffers, I think they are awesome fish, they have personality out the kazoo.
Later Lisa
Second, have your mated pair of puffs every had babies for you? What kind are they?
I would love one day to have a tank with just puffers, I think they are awesome fish, they have personality out the kazoo.
Later Lisa
pufferlover
Active Member
Lisa; In the case of my pair the female has layed (or rather let them loose) twice in the last 3 years. The first time I was quite surprised as I thought she was just getting a bit fat. Anyway I contacted the Shedd aquaruim here in Chgo as to how to handle the eggs and was informed the odds of anything coming out of it was small as they have a plactonic stage where they float along the currents before hatching. I tried saving some in another tank for a couple of weeks but nothing came of it. Second time about a year later it happened again with no results. Thought this year she would do it as she became large again but after having been thru a bad case of Ick and my use of copper she did not lay the eggs this time (whether she will ever again is anybody's guess). I have sort of figured that the male has never done his part except to get excited during the egg throwing process. In both cases she stopped eating for about a week just before doing her thing. Now the downside was there were thousands of eggs coating everything in the tank and that was a lot of fun cleaning up so the filters would keep working. Anyway after almost 8 years these 2 are my pride and joy and never cease to keep me amused with their antics.
By the way there is a picture of them in my photos section if you go thru my homepage to my Puffer site. They are camera shy and I have never been able to get them to give me a good picture. Everytime they see a camera they turn their backs and face the back of the tank (they think they are movie stars I guess). Over the last year I have given them 2 tankmates, a Rock Beauty Angel (in Oct. last year) and a Diana's Hogfish (in Mar of this year). They all get along and now I feel the tank is perfect from a look of color and action.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]
By the way there is a picture of them in my photos section if you go thru my homepage to my Puffer site. They are camera shy and I have never been able to get them to give me a good picture. Everytime they see a camera they turn their backs and face the back of the tank (they think they are movie stars I guess). Over the last year I have given them 2 tankmates, a Rock Beauty Angel (in Oct. last year) and a Diana's Hogfish (in Mar of this year). They all get along and now I feel the tank is perfect from a look of color and action.
[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Pufferlover ]
blueberryboomer
Active Member
Pufflover, I'm sorry to hear you've never had babies, its still cool that she has let lose of the eggs. She must be very comfortable in her home. If they ever have any that survive please post some pics, I love puffers and I can only imagine what the babys look like. I bet they would be very cute. I will take a look at you page to see your puffs, we have a dog face that is camera shy also, the only time I've gotten a good pic of him was when he was totally puffed up. He couldn't move very fast, too funny! I'll look forward to hearing if they ever produce. Later Lisa
sunnyspony
Member
Still no go.
Keeping the faith
Keeping the faith