purple lobster

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by otto13
Regardless if your intentions are good, you are still killing fish. Stop kidding yourself.
I'm not killing anything... not sure what kind of scary tank you have... Do fish die in the pet trade? Absolutely. Do they die once they are in my posession? Nope.
Originally Posted by otto13
Once again, I am not supporting this. Someone at the very beginning told me it would effect their molting process so I decided it wasnt an option. It is only the hypocrites that cant admit this hobby is cruel and unusual to begin with that are upsetting me.
Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder. I'd consider someone who keeps pets while referring to it as "cruel" to be a hypocrite..
Originally Posted by otto13
By the way, why arent you guys at the grocery store protesting the rubberbands on those lobster's claws?
One more time... food=neccessary evil. Crueling treating fish/inverts when they are your pets=wrong...

 

[otto13]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Do fish die in the pet trade? Absolutely. Do they die once they are in my posession? Nope.
I didnt realize that you had never lost a fish before. Ever. That is really amazing. Either that or you are lying.
Here is what happens to your fish before you get it.....
1. He was captured by legal means or by a cyanide squirt bottle that stuns him into unconsciousness. Unfortunately that still happens and it kills reefs. Very bad. A percentage die from injuries, stress and poor conditions.
2. He is then packaged up and shipped, sometimes from overseas, to a wholesale provider. A percentage die due to stress and poor conditions.
3. He is then stored in cramped quarters with less than desirable water quality until he is purchased by a LFS. A percentage die during this waiting period due to stress and conditions.
4. He is then shipped to your LFS where, as you well know, many do survive the shipping process due to stress, temp changes and aggression from others.
5. He is then stored at your LFS under cramped conditions with less than perfect water quality until he is sold. A large portion do not survive this period due to stress, aggression from tank mates and poor water conditions.
6. He is then delivered to someones home. A percentage die from a bad acclimation routine, inexperienced care, aggressive tank mates, bad water conditions, disease, etc....
7. If you fish is lucky enough to make it past this...... ummm....... lets just call it TORTURE, then you have a friend that really will never have the same quality of life or nutrients that he would get from the ocean. Luckily, you can just trade him back to the LFS if you get tired of him.
All of this and the rubberband thing is what you find cruel. None of this other stuff. Really?
You, the fish buyer, are directly responsible for all of this. So when you freak out cause I contemplated using rubber bands or superglue to stop a lobster from killing tank mates and later gave up the idea because of molting issues, stop and think about what you have put your own fish through. Are you being hypocritical? Maybe? Sure you are.
What if we weren’t talking about fish? What if we were talking about hamsters, bunnies, dogs and cats? How would you react if you went into a local pet store and there were dead animals in all of the cages because they didnt survive shipping? Would you still be okay with it? Would it be a "neccesary evil"?
What about all the freaks that mutilate their cats by having their claws/fingers removed or the weirdoes that have their dogs tails cut off and ears surgically altered? You must be violently opposed to that too.
When you use the phrase "neccesary evil" you really mean I dont give a -#$-#.
Good day

 

[clem1999]

I have a pet cat and I wanted to get a pitbull for another pet. I knocked all of his teeth out and they get along just fine.
I have a pet anole and wanted a Tokay Gecko. Since I poked to Tokay's eyes out everything is fine and they all get along.
Oh and all of my aggressive fish in my tank, I duct taped all of their mouths shut so they cant attack any of my other fish. Its ok though cuz I take the tape off when they start looking unhealthy and want to eat.
Dumbest idea I have ever heard.
Idiot

 

[otto13]

I bet you really would do all that.
I dont want to hurt my animals, you sound like you are into it.
By the way.... lobsters do NOT use their front claws for eating. Defense and attack only.
Lordy... read the whole post bright guy.

 

[otto13]

You know, a good analogy of this would be putting kitten boots on my cats. You can buy these or nail guards so they wont claw the furniture. These is exactly the same senario as the rubber bands but for some reason it isnt cruel, its cute.
Lobsters eat with their back claws for gods sake.
Only one person has given me a valid reason why not to do this and it was because it would effect the molting process so I decided not to do it.
Everyone else.
Crybabies and hypocrites.........
I am out of here.
Whine amongst yourselves.....

 

[hagfish]

Originally Posted by otto13
When you use the phrase "neccesary evil" you really mean I dont give a -#$-#.
Good day
Taking him out of context only makes you appear desparate to prove a point.
Here's an introduction to context.
One more time... food=neccessary evil. Crueling treating fish/inverts when they are your pets=wrong...
Food is definitely a neccesary evil. And it's true, they do go through more than enough to end up in our tanks, so why put them through even more when they get there is the point. :notsure:
I think most would agree that it is stressful for these animals to end up in our tanks. But I also think most want to try to provide them with an environment that has as little stress as possible once they are there.
Oh, this reminds me, I need to tie my cat's two front paws together when I get home because she keeps swiping at the Christmas tree ornaments. Don't worry, she doesn't use her paws to eat or anything so it's OK.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by otto13
I didnt realize that you had never lost a fish before. Ever. That is really amazing. Either that or you are lying.
I've lost 2 fish and a coral.. coral was removed fro mtank being broken down, both fish died in QT.. Also had a Goby jump onto the center brace and die, so make that 3 fish.
1. True.
2. True
3. Not true. I only use on LFS and online sellers, such as this site. So, i've effectivly cut out one step in this.
4-5. See #3
6. Nope; QT, RESEARCH purchases, and limiting stress are all steps we can take to eliminate this.
7. Quality of life? My fish are doing well in that department. Variety of food? My fish eat better than they would in the wild. Unlike some, I treat each fish as a pet. no returning them, no supergluing them, etc. I even kept the 3 hitch hiker crabs that came on my live rock and placed them in my Refugium.
Now, let's talk about why I have a tank:
1. Pleasure. Self explanatory.
2. Education. My tank is in my office where on a slow day (5 days a week), 5-10 people see it every day. On my busy days, 60-100 people see it. Those people ask questions, I educate them. 8 of my youth have become certified divers. Education is the key to preservation. Much like a zoo (on an obviously much smaller scale), my tank seeks to promote reef preservation.
Now, let's talk about the benefits of the fish trade:
1. Michael's states that the effect of commercial harvesting of Marine fish has a "minimal environmental impact". Obviously that excludes cyanide harvesting, which has been banned in many countries (due in large part to conservation measures and education).
2. Preservation. Small countries, cities, towns etc. have discovered that they can make far more money through tourism and "sustainable" harvesting than they can by over fishing.
3. Education. See above..
4. Tourism. People get interested in aquariums and want to see more. Again, this adds to economies of countries that need income.
I buy from one LFS, and to date I've never seen a dead fish in their tanks.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Good day to you as well!

 

[hagfish]

IME, declawing a cat isn't that big of a deal. They heal and they still play like crazy and jump all over things (and sleep a lot). They just aren't as delicate as pretty much anything that comes from the ocean. You put most ocean critters through a little stress, and they die. That's where the difference is IMO.
BTW, I don't see a lot of people supporting your idea. Maybe it's time to give it up.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by hagfish
BTW, I don't see a lot of people supporting your idea. Maybe it's time to give it up.
That's what I like about this community... diverse group, but common sense seems to hold sway most of the time around here!

 

[otto13]

Originally Posted by hagfish
BTW, I don't see a lot of people supporting your idea. Maybe it's time to give it up.

My idea was given up by the fourth response to this thread. Oozy said it would hurt the molting process, I agreed and the subject was done with.
The only reason this thread has continued on this long is because I annoyed a few people when they had to comes to terms with the cruelty involved in this hobby. They didnt want to admit that their own pleasure is more important than animal life. I just kept using the lobster analogy because it seem relevant.
A lot of people have made good points and talked about it rationally. Hagfish has made some reasonable points.
Other people, such a 1journeyman, are in a delusional state about the trade and themselves as a hobbiest. I would consider it a God Complex, but who's to say.
So everyone that keeps responding to the lobster thing, that was resolved at the beginning of the post.
Everyone that thinks we are doing these fish a favor, wake up.

 

[oceanists]

Originally Posted by otto13
Thanks ToughGuy80. That is kinda what I was thinking but just need a confirmation.
However.......
Give me a break! Oceanist you should leave this hobby if feel that is inhumane. People are feeding live food to their fish all over this post. If you arent, you are feeding frozen food or ground up fish meal for flakes. All brutally murdered so you can enjoy watching prettier fish in the privacy of your home. When I asked if I should use superglue, I meant would it work rather than if it was ethical.

Otto ,i hate to stoop to your level but you are an absolute moron , yeah i know you werent asking of the ethical side , but have you read the conscientous marine aqaurist , and actually understood what fenner is trying to teach us........... YOU DONT SUPERGLUE LOBSTER CLAWS TOGETHER BECAUSE OF YOUR LACK OF RESEARCH AND IMPULSE BUYING.
And also fish have to eat ,, and so do humans , there is a purpose to that , there is no real purpose to your supergluing of lobster claws , other than your ignorance to keep a creature that you shouldnt have in your tank due to your own wants ......... i think that your the one who should get out of the hobby

 

[otto13]

Once again....
I did research the Lobster before purchasing. I stated that in the first post that no one is reading as well as additional posts further down. I noticed that some websites conflicted so I wanted some personal accounts.
Please please please do not respond to this post if you arent going to read it first.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by otto13
The only reason this thread has continued on this long is because I annoyed a few people when they had to comes to terms with the cruelty involved in this hobby. They didnt want to admit that their own pleasure is more important than animal life. I just kept using the lobster analogy because it seem relevant....
Other people, such a 1journeyman, are in a delusional state about the trade and themselves as a hobbiest. I would consider it a God Complex, but who's to say.
Everyone that thinks we are doing these fish a favor, wake up.
I guess this thread is winding down. You've gone from misquoting to outright fabricating people's responses to try to justify your position.
You "annoyed" people because of your flippant disregard for your livstock. Nothing more.
God complex? That's a woeful stretch. I listed the good things about having an aquarium and the good things about the aquarium trade.
Again, torturing animals for your convenience is unexceptable to me. If you don't agree to that point then we're wasting time going back and forth...

 

[oceanists]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I guess this thread is winding down. You've gone from misquoting to outright fabricating people's responses to try to justify your position.
You "annoyed" people because of your flippant disregard for your livstock. Nothing more.
God complex? That's a woeful stretch. I listed the good things about having an aquarium and the good things about the aquarium trade.
Again, torturing animals for your convenience is unexceptable to me. If you don't agree to that point then we're wasting time going back and forth...
Very nicely put, as always 1journeyman