Purple Tang: Pop-eye and bloated Beth: Please Advise

[dskidmore]

I don't know, this is such a half-educated shot in the dark I've been hesitant to mention what's been on my mind.
If the fish could not adapt to the salinity change for some reason, and his internal fluids have a higher salinity than the water, than osmotic pressure would cause water to flow into his body, causing swelling. The only case I've really seen this on a practical level is the stoma on the underside of a leaf. You can force the stoma to open and close in diffrent solutions. It's only a random theory, I've never heard of it happening on a multi-cellular level.

 

[thomas712]

In order to assist you I contacted another disease expert, hope you don't mind. Here is a response from him.
I see that your salinity and pH are OK. This is probably an advanced bacterial infection which is liquifying tissues inside of the fish. I seriously doubt that you can save the fish considering the severity of the damage. If you are already using Maracyn-Two then it should be at double strength. Use the dose suggested on the box for the first day each and every day for 10 days. You should also make a water change each day before dosing using well aged and aerated saltwater. Sorry to see a fish in such bad condition.
Terry B

 

[clownfish4life]

I don't think he's gonna make it, but he makes an effort everyday. I feel really aweful.
The first sign I noticed was the popeye. Then I noticed, at th time, a small pishkish mass being pushed out of his body. LIke I said, I was monitoring all water parameters daily, then I couldn't for two days because of two tests I had for school, so the tank was neglected for two days. In that two day period, the Trates leaped from less than 2ppm to nearly 50 ppm. The hospital tank I am using is as old as my display, as they were set up at the same time (3 months old). And the tang came down with these problems into the second week of hypo. This week is week three.
Maybe my problem is that my salwater isn't aged? I usually let the salt water sit for 2 days then add it to the tank... I will do a search on here and see how long my water should be aging.
Here's how I feel now though, if this fish won't survive, that it's survival is highly unlikely, and due to the extent of it's bloated body, should i be thinking of some way to put it out of it's misery? I mean, the poor creature hasn't eaten in 5 days. So if this internal bacteria is eating it from the inside and it's staving, should I let it waste away? Is it fair? I"m loathe to do anything of the sort, but... ::shrugs::
Beth, Skid, Thomas... thank you guys for all your help and support. I think there should be a rule on the forum, that if people refuse to get a hospital tank and treat appropiatly, I think they should be ignored. I've been in and out of the forums the past 2 weeks, and 8 out of 10 people say they want help, but refuse to listen to you guy's advice and modify it their way, or they say they don't/won't/can't afford/or care to get a hospital tank. I stop reading threads as soon and I see one of those excuses. It really burns me. But I digress....
In the mean time, guys, I guess all we can do it wait and see. Today, like the ast couple of days, the tang is attempting to swim around, but is thrown off balance by the mass, favoring to lean to the side where the mass seems heaviest. I've been attempong to feed it but it turns away from the offered food. That dosen't stop the rest of them from eating though.

 

[clownfish4life]

OKAY, I couldn't find anything def, everyone was undecided from 1 day to 1 week. So besides keeping it in a container with a heater and powerhead, how long should it sit?

 

[beth]

Is there no improvmement? I have never put a fish "out of its misery" so I can't advocate that. I was trying to get another opinion from Steve Pro, but so far, have not been able to reach him.

 

[stevenpro]

Originally Posted by Beth
Is there no improvmement? I have never put a fish "out of its misery" so I can't advocate that. I was trying to get another opinion from Steve Pro, but so far, have not been able to reach him.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I have been attending the IMAC conference in Chicago and I just got in and checked my messages. Unfortunately, I don't have much to add. I have never seen a fish that looked like that before.

 

[dskidmore]

How many days of hypo did it take for the ick to dissapear on the other fish? You can start increasing the salinity 3 weeks after symptoms dissapear? I'm hoping our little patient can hang on until hypo is over. Hopefully a return to normal conditions will help him fight the infection. If the "anemia" theory holds any water, the trace iron in the salt mix could help. We don't want to end hypo prematurely though, or the ick could come back and put us right back at the beginning.
Don't give up. His chances may not be great, but he has a chance as long as he's swimming.

 

[beth]

At this point, hypo is likely helping to reduce stress, since energy that would normally be used during non-hypo conditions is not expended during hypo, the fish can use it to stay alive.
Did that bulge just suddenly appear? Or delevlop over time? If it were me, and it looked like a bubble only, I might try to lance it, but I won't advocate you doing that since you don't really know what it is.

 

[clownfish4life]

Skid,
The ich dissappeared from the blue hippo after only 1 day in hypo. By that I mean, while I was lowering the SG aver the 48 hour period, the ich dropped off. It has never returned on the hippo and it's skin is beautiful. This is only the begining of week three, so this comming Sunday makes 3 complete weeks.
While he is still struggling, he's having trouble remaining upright now. I looked at his stomach area and It appears that his intestinal tract is comming out. Before it just looked like he was expelling something, but so much has come out that now I can see where the pink mass and body openeing attach. Think and partially rolled up sock. If you pull the sock out of the roll you can see everything is attached and continuous. The bloating hasn't gone down at all, it is worse. It looks like the poor fish is turning inside out.
Beth,
In a nut shell, there is no improvemnt, only a worsening of the condition. His eyes have gone down a bit, only a bit as they are still protruding, but the popeye was the least of my worries... My concern now is that if this fish bursts, and it very much looks like the delicate pink mass will as soon as is scrapes something on the bottom of the tank, will it spread whatever bacteria that is causing this?
When I noticed the mass, it was very small, it's body was not bloated at all. It was just sticking out a bit like he was "passing" something. I know now that this mass is it's intestines. If I lance it, the fish is done for.

 

[beth]

So you have other fish in the QT with it? How many other fish?

 

[dskidmore]

Originally Posted by Beth
At this point, hypo is likely helping to reduce stress, since energy that would normally be used during non-hypo conditions is not expended during hypo, the fish can use it to stay alive.
Really? I didn't know that. I thought ocean fish were most comfortable in ocean conditions, but were adaptable to less salt content.

 

[clownfish4life]

In QT...
1 purple tang (Med)
1 Blue Hippo (Small)
1 Royal Gramma
1 Lawnmower Blenny
2 Scooter Blennies
All fish are in hypo because Blue Hippo came down with ich and 3 or 4 white spots showed up on the Purple.

 

[beth]

I believe ocean fish have actually become marine fish having once been more brackish eons ago, then adapted to saltier conditions. Bony fish osmotic presure is around one quarter that of sea water. This requires the fish to expend a great deal of energy to maintain an adequate balance of ions by drinking a lot of water and eliminating a lot of salt. Stressed or sick fish benefit from hyposaline conditions because the normal salt elimination required of the fish is not so significant under hyposalinie conditions, thus, the fish does not have to work so hard metabolically and can expend its energy on getting well, rather than processing salt.
That is why when hobbyist are afraid to do hyposalinity, there fears are totally unfounded. Contrary, the procedure will actually be a relief for a sick fish.

 

[dskidmore]

Originally Posted by Beth
Bony fish osmotic presure is around one quarter that of sea water.
In theory, isn't the ocean saltier than it was eons ago? It keeps getting topped off with both fresh and mildly salty water. In theory, when the ocean first started to form, it was fresh water.

 

[beth]

Originally Posted by DSkidmore
In theory, isn't the ocean saltier than it was eons ago?
Yes, that is why I said that fish today have adapted to the saltier conditions...it was not their orginal state pre-iceages.

 

[jer4916]

actully the water is less salty if anything. But no the same amount of water is on earth as there was when it was created.

 

[dskidmore]

The major oceans were probably not formed before the 40 days of rain.
The saltiness of the ocean is a salt distribution issue. There is salt in all types of rock, and it washes downstream to the ocean. Water evaporates, leaving saltwater behind. The total amount of salt hasn't changed much* but it's distribution has.
*If we want to get anal and biblical, Lot's wife turned into salt and therefore more salt was added to the earth. Besides the fact that salt is a compound that forms from diffrent elements and can be "created" and "destroyed".
Back to the topic at hand. How is the patient doing?

 

[beth]

Interesting topic, however, we are getting off topic on this thread...which deserves full attention considering what is going on.

 

[clownfish4life]

Still getting worse. The tang is just bobbing along, still not eating (going on 6 days), either on it's side trying to swim and right itself or floating upside down with head flat on bottom of tank. I don't see how it's ever going to get it's insides back into it's body...

 

[beth]

Sorry Clown, looks like there isn't any hope left. Are you going to just let him pass naturally? I doubt that whatever the problem is that its contagious and if it is, then your other fish are already exposed.