Quarantine Tank question

srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
I know I'm in the minority here; but I treat every new fish with copper (SeaChem Cupramine) and a de-wormer in QT. I feel it is very safe, if monitored withe a SeaChem copper test kit, and easy to remove. It is also very effective; I have many, many fish in 4 DTs and have never even suspected a parasite that the copper could have eliminated. I have never suspected any fish loss due vo copper, either. BTW, it would be hard to find a fish that hadn't been exposed to copper during the trip from the reef to your tank. Most collectors, shippers, wholesalers, online dealers, and many LFS routinely use copper as a preventive.
 
pepito113

pepito113

Member
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid
http:///forum/post/3271152
Pepito, one word of caution test your ammonia and PH during Hypo. Ammonia spikes some times and PH tends to go down, may need to buffer for PH and do water changes for ammonia. The last time I QT I used a product called AmQuel I believe that is how you spell it to lower ammonia it worked for me.
I will look for the product Amquel. Thanks.
 
aquaknight

aquaknight

Active Member
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3271171
I know I'm in the minority here; but I treat every new fish with copper (SeaChem Cupramine) and a de-wormer in QT. I feel it is very safe, if monitored withe a SeaChem copper test kit, and easy to remove. It is also very effective; I have many, many fish in 4 DTs and have never even suspected a parasite that the copper could have eliminated. I have never suspected any fish loss due vo copper, either. BTW, it would be hard to find a fish that hadn't been exposed to copper during the trip from the reef to your tank. Most collectors, shippers, wholesalers, online dealers, and many LFS routinely use copper as a preventive.
+1
There is a vast difference between some nasty "CopperPower" unchelated mess, and Cupramine. I have put extremely delicate fish, such as my Rainfordi Butterflyfish, Two-Spot Coralfish, Pennant Bannerfish through Cupramine. And my Rock Beauty angelfish has gone through multiple Cupramine sessions. All with no ill effects.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3271203
+1
There is a vast difference between some nasty "CopperPower" unchelated mess, and Cupramine. I have put extremely delicate fish, such as my Rainfordi Butterflyfish, Two-Spot Coralfish, Pennant Bannerfish through Cupramine. And my Rock Beauty angelfish has gone through multiple Cupramine sessions.
Amen. There are a few very copper-sensitive fish, like Flame angels, but they can still handle an effective dose of Cupramine. SeaChem tech support is outstanding (IMO&IME) and they will gladly help you over the phone if you have questions about using Cupramine on any fish.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Cupramine is a very good medication to treat parasites, no doubt about it. Its also fairly safe to use with a well-established, well-maintained QT. It is still toxic, more toxic to the parasite then to the fish, but still toxic.
Considering that ich can be effectively treated and eradicated using a totally benign alternative to copper, there is no reason not to use hyposalinity to treat ich. But, if you need another reason, consider that copper is the treatment of choice for many other parasites, besides ich. To avoid over use of copper, that could well result in developing resistance to its beneficial effects when you absolutely need it to treat other parasites, it is best to use copper sparingly, and only when absolutely needed. It should not be used prophylacticly, and, in my view, it should be the 2nd choice for ich treatment.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3271253
Cupramine is a very good medication to treat parasites, no doubt about it. Its also fairly safe to use with a well-established, well-maintained QT. It is still toxic, more toxic to the parasite then to the fish, but still toxic.
Considering that ich can be effectively treated and eradicated using a totally benign alternative to copper, there is no reason not to use hyposalinity to treat ich. But, if you need another reason, consider that copper is the treatment of choice for many other parasites, besides ich. To avoid over use of copper, that could well result in developing resistance to its beneficial effects when you absolutely need it to treat other parasites, it is best to use copper sparingly, and only when absolutely needed. It should not be used prophylacticly, and, in my view, it should be the 2nd choice for ich treatment.
As always, I consider beth to be the authority on fish health issues and I seldom give "advice'; I just try to share my experiences and opinions.
I've used copper in QT for as long as I can remember, and it used to be a pain. When I moved, following Hurricane Katrina, I had fish in QT non-stop for about 3 years. I found Cupramine easy to use, , monitor, and remove; as well as very effective. I use copper (abs a de-wormer) in QT to prevent not only ich, but all the other parasites that respond to copper as well. I can't remember the last time I used copper to treat ich on established fish ; because I can't remember the last time I had any ich in a DT.
I'm not 100% sure, but aren't most (maybe all) fish sold on this site treated prophylacticly with copper? I know that is the case at two of the larger online dealers. If they haven't been; chances are they have been copper-treated along the way. I know many 'bugs" can become resistant to treatment; super-germs and dog fleas for instance; but that is after many generations of developing the resistance. Maybe it can happen with one or two copper exposures; I sure don't know for sure.
 
cranberry

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/3271391
Maybe it can happen with one or two copper exposures; I sure don't know for sure.
Not even just online dealers... ask your LFS. All ours have copper in their tanks at low levels.
And even those stores that DON'T use cooper in their tanks... where to you think they are getting some of their fish from... LAX wholesalers... and they ALL use copper in their tanks. A fish can be in and out of copper multiple times before they reach for tank.
The wholesalers started using copper about 2 year ago. We use to dip up water and walk around and throw in fish and inverts. Then they started copper in the tanks so that you have to get separate containers and water for the invert section. I should have brought some water home and tested what levels they are keeping it at for curiousity. And then monitor how it fluctuates.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3271395
Not even just online dealers... ask your LFS. All ours have copper in their tanks at low levels.
And even those stores that DON'T use cooper in their tanks... where to you think they are getting some of their fish from... LAX wholesalers... and they ALL use copper in their tanks. A fish can be in and out of copper multiple times before they reach for tank.
The wholesalers started using copper about 2 year ago. We use to dip up water and walk around and throw in fish and inverts. Then they started copper in the tanks so that you have to get separate containers and water for the invert section. I should have brought some water home and tested what levels they are keeping it at for curiousity. And then monitor how it fluctuates.
Yeah, and almost every overseas shipping & holding facility has routinely used it for years.
BTW, Cranberry, a while back I mentioned a giant female maroon clown that I assumed was too big for one of my Volitans to eat. You said yours would...mine did.
 
king_neptune

king_neptune

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3270648
how would you be treating
I guess maybe I interprited this as being a snide comment.
I was trying to lighten the mood, didnt want the new guy to feel like he was being picked on for asking a question.
People come here for help. But instead all it did was cause you to open fire on me. Ive been wrong before, and If I was, apologize.
As for the rest of ICH debate,I read and read and read on the topic. I don't know where I confused. Let me dig up some examples of what I'm talking about, ill try to put up direct quotes from articles Ive read. If I misinterpreted what was explained in my readings, them I'm glad to find out. But I'm pretty sure it said(a synopsys of course) that ICH has multiple stages in its life cycle. The free swimming form, the stage where its attached to the fish, and the stage where it needs sand/LR.
Removing the fish from the sand/LR prevents the ICH from completing its cycle. Sure seemed to work for me. I wouldn't Hypo my tank because the inverts and corals. So I had to use the separation method. I was told 3-6 weeks would do. I did it for 10 because I wanted to be absolutely sure. 10 weeks was overkill, but I read an article where lab tests showed the ICH in its free swimming stage could possibly survive up to 70days. Your talking 1/10th of 1%....but I didnt want to take any chances.
With no fish in the tank the ICH couldnt survive.
I stand by ready to recive more lashings.^_^
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by King_Neptune
http:///forum/post/3271429
I guess maybe I interprited this as being a snide comment.
I was trying to lighten the mood, didnt want the new guy to feel like he was being picked on for asking a question.
People come here for help. But instead all it did was cause you to open fire on me. Ive been wrong before, and If I was, apologize.
As for the rest of ICH debate,I read and read and read on the topic. I don't know where I confused. Let me dig up some examples of what I'm talking about, ill try to put up direct quotes from articles Ive read. If I misinterpreted what was explained in my readings, them I'm glad to find out. But I'm pretty sure it said(a synopsys of course) that ICH has multiple stages in its life cycle. The free swimming form, the stage where its attached to the fish, and the stage where it needs sand/LR.
Removing the fish from the sand/LR prevents the ICH from completing its cycle. Sure seemed to work for me. I wouldn't Hypo my tank because the inverts and corals. So I had to use the separation method. I was told 3-6 weeks would do. I did it for 10 because I wanted to be absolutely sure. 10 weeks was overkill, but I read an article where lab tests showed the ICH in its free swimming stage could possibly survive up to 70days. Your talking 1/10th of 1%....but I didnt want to take any chances.
With no fish in the tank the ICH couldnt survive.
I stand by ready to recive more lashings.^_^
King I am sure you would want be to be perfectly honest with you, so I will be.You interpretation of my post was wrong it want not a snide (and I don’t even know what that word means) comment. Now on to ick. This statement which you say you read and the stage where it needs sand/LR. Is ABSOLUTY WRONG Ick does not need sand or live rock to continue its life cycle. Think about what you are saying. If this was true all we would need to do if our fish were to become infected was move them to a bare bottom (spanko) tank and wait for the cycle to be broken.
but I read an article where lab tests showed the ICH in its free swimming stage could possibly survive up to 70days.
There has never been in all my reading and talking to both hobbyists and experts alike any such statement. they may very well have been talking about a mimic parasite.
 
srfisher17

srfisher17

Active Member
I'm with Joe on both issues bare tanks & 70 days).. here's what Beth has to say in her sticky on ich in the disease section of the forum:
"2.The tomont stage occurs when the trophont matures after having fed on your fish for around a week. At this point, the parasite, engorged and well-fed on your fish, detaches its protective cystic covering, leaves the host fish and swims in the water column for several hours until it can find a place in the aquarium to settle. It will then attach itself to a surface in the aquarium: Sand, live rock and, perhaps even the surface of rocks where coral is attahced, or even the aquarium glass, filters, whatever. Once settled the cells within the cyst begin dividing to form more parasites [up to several hundred]. [cycle timeframe: several hours]"
BTW Joe. I think your new avatar is a much better reflection of its owner than that wimpy turtle you had!
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3271466


BTW Joe. I think your new avatar is a much better reflection of its owner than that wimpy turtle you had!
Yes I have turned over a new leaf NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY
Henry now THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
http:///forum/post/3271480
I feel people who refer to Cryptocaryon irritans as Ick, don't know enough about it

kidding of course guys
Yea me to every time I hear Julian Sprung referring to is as marine ick I want to just scream.(in a masculine way of course.)
BTW dont you just love when a clown hosts an anemone
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
In kings defense I read an article somewhere not long ago that said in some instances that ich has been found to last as long as 9 weeks with no host. Doing the math thats 63 days. Im thinking that there must be more info out there that is eitehr wrong or you havn't read it yet.
Joe,
No more mister nice guy? So you are saying that the old you was the nice one? Holy crap are we in for a treat!
So, i guess i still am not sure about my own QT then. Is it correct that simply puting them into a QT and observing them may or may not do anything at all as tehy could still have the ich and not be showing it? I needed to do this freshwater dip?
I've got a sixline 2 weeks in with no dip and showing no signs, was going for another 2 weeks of observing before adding him to the DT. Please advise.
Currently i have a yellow tang and a mandarin that have been Qt'ed with no dip for 4 weeks each, no signs of ich.
I'm cautious about the sixline because some of the other fish at this LFS looked to have some spotting (different tanks, but all the tanks go to one big sump and then return to the displays. So they are all connected basically.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Jstdv8
http:///forum/post/3271513
In kings defense I read an article somewhere not long ago that said in some instances that ich has been found to last as long as 9 weeks with no host. Doing the math thats 63 days. Im thinking that there must be more info out there that is eitehr wrong or you havn't read it yet.
Joe,
No more mister nice guy? So you are saying that the old you was the nice one? Holy crap are we in for a treat!
So, i guess i still am not sure about my own QT then. Is it correct that simply puting them into a QT and observing them may or may not do anything at all as tehy could still have the ich and not be showing it? I needed to do this freshwater dip?
I've got a sixline 2 weeks in with no dip and showing no signs, was going for another 2 weeks of observing before adding him to the DT. Please advise.
Currently i have a yellow tang and a mandarin that have been Qt'ed with no dip for 4 weeks each, no signs of ich.
I'm cautious about the sixline because some of the other fish at this LFS looked to have some spotting (different tanks, but all the tanks go to one big sump and then return to the displays. So they are all connected basically.

No more mister nice guy? So you are saying that the old you was the nice one? Holy crap are we in for a treat!
Yes you are i wish that these fathom publications about ich will we posted. I read somewhere someone told me just does not cut it
So, i guess i still am not sure about my own QT then. Is it correct that simply puting them into a QT and observing them may or may not do anything at all as tehy could still have the ich and not be showing it? I needed to do this freshwater dip?
when did anyone say this we are talking about the proper time line for observation
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
well, i guess since (I beleive it was spanko) posted a link on page one of this thread that said that the proper QT procedure is to Freshwater dip and then observe for 4 weeks and if anything is seen then you treat with copper (or other methods) and once the spots are gone the clock starts from scratch again.
So, while no one said it directly one of the respected posters posted a link he obviously thought was correct so its kind of like he said it (in a way).
The only real problem I have here is:
A.) I read up on this stuff but everybody has a different idea on how long, what to treat, when to treat, and now this freshwater dip thing I wasnt fully aware of.
B.) It is especially evident in this thread that Joe (among others) wants us to read without actually coming out and giving the answers, but when we do it often comes back contreadictory to what the poster who tells us we are in the wrong has posted.
So, wouldnt it be alot easier to just come out and say it rather than dance around the subject?
I guess Im a begger and beggers can't be choosers :)
I'd like to have my cake and eat it too LOL
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
and in response to your post about needing something better than "I read somewhere" Several links for 8 weeks could be found allthogun I couldnt find the one that was 9 weeks (Go figure right)
If this forum allowed me to post from other sites I'd post a few for you. But I guess I could always tell yuo the same thing you like to tell me (and others) google it and go read up if you don't beleive what I read :)
Not saying they are right or anyone is wrong. Again I'm just looking for answers and everyone seems to ahve something different to say.
 
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