Question for those of you who performed hypo for ich recently......

cranberry

Active Member
.... and had it come back.
  • Was the fish in your DT when it originally was discovered they had ich?
  • How low was your salinity?
  • How long did the hypo last?
  • How long was you display tank fallow?
  • Did you use a refractometer?
    Was this the first time you performed hypo?
    What was your hypo tank setup?
    What did you do when it returned?
    Did it come back after that?
 

ibanez

Member
I hope this goes somewhere soon because I am anxious to hear about it. What exactly are you looking for? Have you used it? If so could you answer those questions.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I haven't done hypo in several years, but I do think it would be good if you would state your reason for this topic.
Personally, I believe that failures with hypo are 99% due to hobbyist error in the procedure. Can there be a rare resistant strain of the parasite? Well, there's no proof, but there is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that this may happen. I think, however, hobbyists are way too quick to attribute treatment failures due to the "resistant strain" rather than their own error.
 

ibanez

Member
I always imagined that they were kind of like brine shrimp, would have some way of going dormant until some sort of optimal conditions existed, if there was no host. I hatched this theory due to the many complaints about ich being in aquariums who have had no additions for months and months.
 

noah's nemo

Member
I did it about a year and a half ago...No sign of it since then.I kept my SG at 1.008 for 32 days(in a QT,DT was fallow for 9 weeks),I honestly believe its gone.I have added 3 fish since,with no reaccurances.I agree with Beth,that people are too quick to blame the process rather than themselves.I have always enjoyed reading the articles by Steven Pro,he seems to know a think or 2 about it.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3263050
I always imagined that they were kind of like brine shrimp, would have some way of going dormant until some sort of optimal conditions existed, if there was no host. I hatched this theory due to the many complaints about ich being in aquariums who have had no additions for months and months.
This a common misconception in the hobby that is not backed by science. Ich is a parasite, and must have a host within its less than 3 weeks life cycle to survive.
 

ibanez

Member
Sorry if this is considered hijacking, correct me if it is, but when qting, can you acclimate fish over 1.5 hour or so period, to the low salinity of 1.009 or do you have to gradually decrease salinity. I have heard you can, but am wondering your opinion on the matter. I know you would have to gradually increase the salinity when the treatment is done.. but...?
 

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/3263058
This a common misconception in the hobby that is not backed by science. Ich is a parasite, and must have a host within its less than 3 weeks life cycle to survive.
They have found parasites that lasted a lot longer than that. I read this in a parasitology journal... or some other just as sound journal. I would not be able to "prove" that by presenting specific references because I'm getting ready for a move and it's all packed away. I always figured it was not the norm, so I never considered it much of a possibility in our tanks.
But I'll be honest. I always thought failed hypos were hobbyist error. But then I knew some very reputable resources say they've had trouble recently, so I was like Hmmmm. Now, I'm faced with it myself. My volitans underwent hypo at 1.008 so it would only bounce up to 1.009 before being brought back down. I leave my fish for even longer than recommended. So where is this coming from? Not sure how to say this without sounding... I don't know...big on myself.... but there's not a chance of human error.
Physically it looks like ich from parasites removed from the molt. We cannot take pictures because those 'scopes are in the Clean Room. With his next molt I am going to send the specimen to a lab.
So, what's up? I'm going another treatment route that my friends have had great success with. But hypo was once such a nice reliable way to go. I have no idea what happened.
But then there are factors that say it isn't a "Long Encapsulating" ich.... but we don't need to go there. Just trying to piece some stuff together.
Originally Posted by IbanEz

http:///forum/post/3263059
Sorry if this is considered hijacking, correct me if it is, but when qting, can you acclimate fish over 1.5 hour or so period, to the low salinity of 1.009 or do you have to gradually decrease salinity. I have heard you can, but am wondering your opinion on the matter. I know you would have to gradually increase the salinity when the treatment is done.. but...?
Not the popular way on this forum, but some fish breeders, some friends who work in the hobby and myself just place them in the hypo directly from the norm.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3263059
Sorry if this is considered hijacking, correct me if it is, but when qting, can you acclimate fish over 1.5 hour or so period, to the low salinity of 1.009 or do you have to gradually decrease salinity. I have heard you can, but am wondering your opinion on the matter. I know you would have to gradually increase the salinity when the treatment is done.. but...?
It has to be over time. 48 hours is generally the best way.
 

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3263091
They have found parasites that lasted a lot longer than that. I read this in a parasitology journal... or some other just as sound journal. I would not be able to "prove" that by presenting specific references because I'm getting ready for a move and it's all packed away. I always figured it was not the norm, so I never considered it much of a possibility in our tanks.
When you finish your move, if you're able to provide the back up to this, then please do-so. Everything I have ever read has always been anecdotal. Now, granted, I do believe that ich subjected to inappropriate hypo attempts can become resistant to the procedure, just as the parasite can become resistant to failed copper treatments.
 

cranberry

Active Member
I will, but just know it can take several months.
This was the fish that I brought in at the size of a small walnut. It's my old volitans. He's never underwent an inappropriate hypo.
 

mr. limpid

Active Member
Answers to orginal question, then I have a question.
1)Yes and new bought
2)1.009 during the hypo (some time 1.010 or 1.008) reason not home all the time to monitor
3)2 days getting down to 1.009; 3 weeks in hypo; 1 week back up to 1.023
4)I think you want to know how long was my DT up? 1 year
5)Yes
6)Yes on the DT; many times since
7)10 gal
8)Performed hypo again (the first time I believe the ick was still in my rock or sand when I returned back to DT)
9)It's been 2 years no ick in DT
And now my question Beth or anyone I can not post new treads help! This is why I post in your trerad sorry Crannbery
 

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid
http:///forum/post/3264211
And now my question Beth or anyone I can not post new treads help! This is why I post in your trerad sorry Crannbery
Ya, others are having a problem with that too. I'm not sure where we are with a solution. I never had the problem, but maybe others who did can help you. Hope you'll be right and rain soon.
 
I have tried many treatments for ick over the last 10 years. Hypo just doesn’t work for me I run copper in QT for treating ick, flukes, ect. ect along with an antibiotic. My tank water quality declines when in hypo and skimmers are ineffective and to do 30 gallon water changes every week is a PITA but this is my experience
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
My two cents
Fact. We know how the ick parasite divides
Fact. We know that hypo reduces the osmotic pressure differential to a level where there can be no division.
If we can say with 100% certainty that we have preformed hypo correctly, then we have to deduce that the parasite we are dealing with that does not have its live cycle interrupted is NOT the ick parasite but one that mimics its appearance.
I have never read any published information stating that when the ick parasite when positively identified under a microscope underwent hypo preformed properly was able to divide
 

cranberry

Active Member
I looked at it under a microscope. It looks like ich. I agree there's something going on.... but from what In could see with my own eyes, was that it was ich I was dealing with. If this fish goes down, I'll be sending it in for a necropsy.
So, IMO, we're either missing a piece of the puzzle, or we discovered a new parasites that looks and acts like ich, but does not die like ich. I personally lean towards we are missing a piece of the puzzle.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
If its not human error in the procedure of Hypo I on the other hand lean toward another type of parasite. its not like ick can build up an immunity to hypo as you know it would have to bend the laws of physics and transfer fluids though its membrane without osmotic pressure differential
 

cranberry

Active Member
But different critters succumb at different points. Why does the magic number have to be 1.009? What about it's 1.007?
Immunity is not the word I would use at any rate. Resistance would be a better word. But to put it simple... who is to say ich has to die at your standard 1.009? I'm honestly not being nit-picky, but I want to make sure peeps don't think I'm saying ich has an immunity to hypo. I'm not even saying they are resistant... I don't know what is going on.
Cryptocaryon irritans includes a couple of mildly different "strains" that are lumped into the same species. (I don't think strains is the correct word in this situation). Their characteristics are not different enough to warrant a different species, however their ARE differences at some basic level. (I don't remember specifics). Isn't it conceivable that one can have a little thicker membrane, slightly difference patho that could better deal with hypo?
Critters found in certain oceans can have a different tolerance to to certain environments. Why couldn't these critters include Ich? What in physics law states ich has to die at 1.009 as we all commonly prescribe?
 

ibanez

Member
What about the fact that there is ich in both fresh water and salt water. For salt water, you lower salinity, for freshwater, you add salt. Could it be possible in a fish store that these two strains of ich could come together or could be placed in an environment where they adapted to different water conditions. How could something so similar exist in opposite conditions without having to somehow adapt to it. In the wild, what if a fish having ich swims up a freshwater creek, or the opposite? You see adaptation in viruses, parasites, and other things all the time, it is logical to think that the ich parasite is able to adapt if given the time.
I remember reading something that when dropping a saltwater fish in low salinity water, the change in pressure causes the ich to explode. If the lowering of salinity was done gradually, the parasite could adapt to survive the change. Just some ideas to think about.
 

cranberry

Active Member
There are big differences between freshwater Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and saltwater Cryptocaryon irritans.
 
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