Really fine white ocean sand?

cannonman

Member
Okay, so silica based sand can potentially lead me down a "dirty" road so to speak. BUT: diatoms need more than just silica to reproduce- (I don't know what they all need and don't feel like looking it up right now) so would it be possilbe to eliminate one or more of these other factors enough so as to control any potential diatom problem? Just as an example, let's say diatoms need: Silica, phosphate, mineral X, chemical X, and nutrient X. and let's say that I go ahead and get this sand anyways... if I can keep one of these other things at 0 in my tank (let's say phosphate) then I shouldn't have a problem no matter how much silica or silicates are available... right? Or wrong??
:notsure:
 

reefkprz

Active Member
definitely, there is silica in regular reef sand. I was just advising against it because of the potential for problems, If you keep your phosphates and nitrates and other factors pristine, there is no reason to think it cant be used. If you recall my original post said it can promote algae, but there was no guarantee that it would cause problems. I was just trying to make you aware of the pros and cons that's all.
I hope this information helps you make an informed descision.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
So yes diatomic algae can use silica sand to multiply and lead to algae problems, I know its hard to believe but its true. I dont want to start an argument but diatoms are about 90% silica (Si02) by dry weight.
Sorry, no. Diatoms cannot use Silica to build their skeleton, they require Silicates (Silicic Acid).
I agree that Diatoms are mostly comprised of Silica but they need Silicates to form the Silica shell.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
How does Silicate and Silicic Acid get into your Aquarium
Many water sources contain silicates or silicic acid, or compounds that contain these elements and these compounds eventually break down, adding silicates and silicic acid to your aquarium's water.
In aquariums where sandy or other forms of substrate are used, silicate can leach "out" of these compounds, and enter the tank's water very quickly. It usually only takes a few weeks for this to happen (at the maximum). Often it happens much sooner. The latter is especially the case if silica sand is used as the substrate in the aquarium (this is too often the case,unfortunately). Although less common now than a year or so ago, hobbyists were adding "play sand" to their tanks to build up a substrate. Play sand and so-called blasting sand are very high in silicate and should be avoided if you wish to keep silicates low.
My point is that silica sand is not going to be laboratory grade quartz with low soulubility, the cheap play sand is going to contain high amounts of soluble silica which leeches into the water at high phs. If its 99% quartz sand the soulubility will be about .03% (wich is lower that your aquarium glass and silicone seals on your aquarium), no problem. But a lower quality sand could contain a significant amount of feldspar (or any other particularly soluble silica compound) contamination, silicates leech into water from opaline deposits and such found in regular aragonite sand, why do you think there is a diatom bloom upon starting a new aquarium? because the soluble silica contained in your glass and silicone seals leaches into your water plus whatever opaline deposits are in your sand.
Three common forms of silica found in water are soluble (dissolved), colloidal and particulate. Soluble silica is commonly referred to as reactive silica, while colloidal silica may be called non-reactive or polymeric silica. The particulate kind may also be as suspended or granular. Colloidal silica contaminants are often combined with organic material. One problem high-purity water end users face in the removal of silica is that colloidal silica, unlike reactive silica, cannot be measured with conventional on-line techniques.
 

chipmaker

Active Member
The whole thing in a nutshell:
Silica based sand is perfectly safe to use in a a marine tank
It does not spawn an algae bloom
Silicates and silica are two different animals
Pretty well impossible to find "silica" based sands that have a smooth surface as the nature of the beast ius for it to fracture thus making new sharp edges.......Thats is yet anothe rreason its used for foundry sands as it has the jagged surface features and even continuous moveing of the sand will not "round" or smooth the grains up.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I really dont know how else to explain the link between silica and silicates.
Bang I respect your opinions almost everything but on this topic I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you, and I'll leave it at that.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
I really dont know how else to explain the link between silica and silicates.
Bang I respect your opinions almost everything but on this topic I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you, and I'll leave it at that.
We're not so far off base.
I agree that so called "silica" based play sand contains vast amounts of Feldspar and other Silicate compounds that will definately leach Silicates and can be the source of endless Diatom blooms.
My point is that silica sand is not going to be laboratory grade quartz with low soulubility, the cheap play sand is going to contain high amounts of soluble silica which leeches into the water at high phs. If its 99% quartz sand the soulubility will be about .03% (wich is lower that your aquarium glass and silicone seals on your aquarium), no problem.
We agree there 100%. Only pure silica sand is suitable for deep sand beds. It's not cheap and it's not "Play Sand".
Pure Silica sand should be fine to use though in my opinion. This sand will not say "play sand" because it's totally unsuitable the be around. Silicosis is very dangerous and I'd even suggest wearing a dust mask when handling it around your aquarium. Once it's in water it's safe though.
Pure Silica Sand is bright white with no visible impurities and will usually have a notice on the side that says "Hazardous".
The silica based "pool filter sand" is also not suitable. It has rouch edges from being "cracked". It will not be able to maintain a healthy sand bed.
How does Silicate and Silicic Acid get into your Aquarium
Many water sources contain silicates or silicic acid, or compounds that contain these elements and these compounds eventually break down, adding silicates and silicic acid to your aquarium's water.
I actually think we're on the same page. I never have advocated using Silica Play Sand, only pure silica, fine grained, rounded sand. It can be found as high end sand blasting beade and a few other sources. None of them are cheap that I know of.
 

cannonman

Member
If anybody stumbles across this thread who has tried or is now using "play sand" or sandblasting sand of one type or another I would like to hear your experiences with it thus far.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
I think we are on the same page too, (just reading different ends of it)
so here is the breakdown (I'm laughing my butt off while typeing) buying the cheap sand is like buying a cheap skimmer not worht the head ache, If your going to buy pure quartz sand (expensive) you wont have any problems, butif you buy the cheaper stuff with impurities it can lead to problems...... look at that we agreed the whole time and didn't even realize it.
oh random piece of info I came accross since the quartz (high quality) sand is so almost completly non-reactive you dont any of the buffering capacity like with aragonite sand but otherwise it wont make any difference to the critters living in it.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
I think we are on the same page too, (just reading different ends of it)
so here is the breakdown (I'm laughing my butt off while typeing) buying the cheap sand is like buying a cheap skimmer not worht the head ache, If your going to buy pure quartz sand (expensive) you wont have any problems, butif you buy the cheaper stuff with impurities it can lead to problems...... look at that we agreed the whole time and didn't even realize it.
oh random piece of info I came accross since the quartz (high quality) sand is so almost completly non-reactive you dont any of the buffering capacity like with aragonite sand but otherwise it wont make any difference to the critters living in it.
I agree totally with everything you said here.
I don't think the buffering capacity of aragonite is much to speak of but there is a slight amount deep in the sand bed.
Personally, I use oolitic aragonite from the caribbean.
 

kogle

Member
My two cents:
I just upgraded from a 55 to a 180 and needed some "dead sand" to make up the difference from the 2 tanks. I found the OldCastle play sand that everyone was talking about in the blue bags so I bought 200 lbs, rinsed, and put into the 180. I then added water. The very next day I tried to level out the play sand with my hands so I could put the LS over top of it and it was compacted to the point of almost feeling like concrete. I decided to remove this sand and I finally found some 100% calcium carbinate sand. I then added this to the 180 and the next day I went to level it out and it moved just like the sand in the 55 that was purchased as LS. The calcium based sand did not compact. (It also passed the vinegar test)
I've heard from various sources that you CAN use play sand but I decided I didn't want to chance it with all of the money invested.
ALSO... if you use the Oldcastle stuff make sure it's in the blue bag and says from the carribean on it. All of the other stuff comes from various gravel pits acrossed the US. I'd be more worried about contaminates than silicates from the gravel pit stuff.
I know this didn't really clarify the situation any more but I wanted to share my experience with you.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
thats funny that you mention oolitic sand because I am currently trying to get my hands on some to add as a sublayer to beef up my sand bed. (none of the LFS's here carry it) I'm shooting for a total of five inches in my sump and 5 to 9 in my display, a friend of mine is donating to me about 80lbs more of reef sand all live. I want Oolite for the bottom since I'm moving all my stuff into my newly purchased house (next month) it would be the best time to do it (convenience wise not monetarily)
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by Whitetip*09
is there some way to test for silica or silicates in your sand? for some reason vinegar is flashing in my head.
Vinegar will react with Calcium carbonate based sand and will not react to Silica sand.
It's not a good enough test to see if it's pure silica sand. The bag it comes in should specify contents. If not try to find a website for the company or call them directly.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Whitetip*09
is there some way to test for silica or silicates in your sand? for some reason vinegar is flashing in my head.

vinegar reacts with calcium, it wont tell you if there are silicate or silica present
Silica may not show in a conductivity measurement, but whatever it's complexed with should... The most common silicates are potassium and sodium, both of those will affect conductivity. At any rate, Hach makes test kits for just about everything and has one for hardness and one for silicates.
Salifert makes a test kit for it too, bout 18.99 or so
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by reefkprZ
vinegar reacts with calcium, it wont tell you if there are silicate or silica present
Silica may not show in a conductivity measurement, but whatever it's complexed with should... The most common silicates are potassium and sodium, both of those will affect conductivity. At any rate, Hach makes test kits for just about everything and has one for hardness and one for silicates.
We're still on the same page :joy:
 

cannonman

Member
wow, thanks for all this info you guys... I think I will go with the "good stuff" that is bagged just for aquariums... I'll probably have to order online..(aghhh.. the shipping charge) When you've spent as much as I have in the past couple of years who cares though.. Couple hundred dollars more..might as well. How much sand do you think I should order for a 75 gal reef? It's the standard 48" long by whatever by whatever... I don't know if I am going with a deep sand bed yet or not, sure has been a lot of talk lately as to problems with them over long periods of time... so, give me an estimate in pounds on what it might take for a shallow sand bed and a deep one if you don't mind... I know, it's probably been posted a bazillion times already.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
for two inches you want about 70lbs for a 48inch by 18inch 75gallon for five inches 175lbs. really you need to decide how deep you want your sand bed, then you'll know how much to order. just figure for every inch of depth in a 48x18 footprint you need 35lbs of sand.
 

greenwolf52

Member
what is the benefit of a deep sand bed?
if i already have 2" of argonite, can i add someting a little more fine on top of it?
 
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