Red slime remover or Chemiclean
- Thread starter meowzer
- Start date
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Red Slime remover is an antibiotic that kills cyano. Some people with a lot of cyano have dosed their tanks and then their tank crashes because there was too much dead matter in the water column for their filtration to handle... ammonia spikes etc. That's why you have to do a 50% water change between 12 to 24 hours after dosing... I forget how long, really. It's on the box.
I've used Red Slime Remover in my 90g with no ill effects. I followed the instructions to the letter and it came out right... I was successful with it. I guess it just depends on how much cyano you have and what kind of filtration you maintain.
Meowzer - you know cyano is caused by poor water quality, lighting and low water flow... Why don't you adjust your levels, start doing some water changes to reduce nitrate and phosphate and looking into other means of control? On big tanks like yours, You could get away with using it, but it's not a cure all for poor water quality.
I've used Red Slime Remover in my 90g with no ill effects. I followed the instructions to the letter and it came out right... I was successful with it. I guess it just depends on how much cyano you have and what kind of filtration you maintain.
Meowzer - you know cyano is caused by poor water quality, lighting and low water flow... Why don't you adjust your levels, start doing some water changes to reduce nitrate and phosphate and looking into other means of control? On big tanks like yours, You could get away with using it, but it's not a cure all for poor water quality.
meowzer
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/388020/crush-coral-or-sand-bed-in-a-reef-tank#post_3419074
Meowzer - you know cyano is caused by poor water quality, lighting and low water flow... Why don't you adjust your levels, start doing some water changes to reduce nitrate and phosphate and looking into other means of control? On big tanks like yours, You could get away with using it, but it's not a cure all for poor water quality.
LOL....I have done EVERYTHING.....I have a phosphate reactor, use chemi-pure elite...turned down the amount the lights are on...have 2 MP40's a canister with a flow bar and a Koralia 1400.....Have done weekly (mostly bi tho) waterchanges of 40 gallons...rinse foods, IDK what else to do anymore
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/388020/crush-coral-or-sand-bed-in-a-reef-tank#post_3419074
Meowzer - you know cyano is caused by poor water quality, lighting and low water flow... Why don't you adjust your levels, start doing some water changes to reduce nitrate and phosphate and looking into other means of control? On big tanks like yours, You could get away with using it, but it's not a cure all for poor water quality.
LOL....I have done EVERYTHING.....I have a phosphate reactor, use chemi-pure elite...turned down the amount the lights are on...have 2 MP40's a canister with a flow bar and a Koralia 1400.....Have done weekly (mostly bi tho) waterchanges of 40 gallons...rinse foods, IDK what else to do anymore
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Well, in your case, go ahead and do it. But you will probably still have problems in the future. Sorry to hijack the thread, lol.
What's your fish stocklist, Mewozer?
What's your fish stocklist, Mewozer?
meowzer
Moderator
My stock list is:
Sailfin tang, Yellow tang, Blue hippo tang, Vlamingi tang
Pseudochromis, 2 green chromis, 2 perc clowns, 2 PJ cardinals
Yellow coris wrasse, Blue YT damsel, Coral beauty, Flame angel
One spot foxface, Bi-color blennie
I am probably forgetting someone.....I always do...LOL
Sailfin tang, Yellow tang, Blue hippo tang, Vlamingi tang
Pseudochromis, 2 green chromis, 2 perc clowns, 2 PJ cardinals
Yellow coris wrasse, Blue YT damsel, Coral beauty, Flame angel
One spot foxface, Bi-color blennie
I am probably forgetting someone.....I always do...LOL
bubblegurl
Member
Hi Meowzer,
I used it in my 55 gl a while ago, did 2 doses then a huge water change and siphoned as much of the dead stuff out as we could.- it was mostly on the sand. I also did an additional water change a week later. I increased flow in the tank and it has not been an issue since. We could see results within 12 hours. I don't have much else to offer but it did work for us with no issues with the tank or its inhabitants. gl!
I used it in my 55 gl a while ago, did 2 doses then a huge water change and siphoned as much of the dead stuff out as we could.- it was mostly on the sand. I also did an additional water change a week later. I increased flow in the tank and it has not been an issue since. We could see results within 12 hours. I don't have much else to offer but it did work for us with no issues with the tank or its inhabitants. gl!
meowzer
Moderator
Thanks....any input is greatly appreciated
I am VERY against using chemicals, BUT IDK what else to do.....The tank is not covered...I siphon as much as I could daily (hard to reach a lot) BUT I am afraid of it getting worse
When I get home tonight I will begin to make another 40G's to do a w/c again this weekend too
I am VERY against using chemicals, BUT IDK what else to do.....The tank is not covered...I siphon as much as I could daily (hard to reach a lot) BUT I am afraid of it getting worse
When I get home tonight I will begin to make another 40G's to do a w/c again this weekend too
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
Umm, ... ok.
Could you post some pics of the problem areas? Also post a full tank shot so that I can get a better idea of the situation...
Do you have any really sensitive corals,.. sps etc?
... oh, and what are your current water parameters, especially nitrate and phosphate.
What do you use for filtration media? I know you said you already use a phosphate reactor, but what else? Protein skimmer, algae scrubber... ??
Could you post some pics of the problem areas? Also post a full tank shot so that I can get a better idea of the situation...
Do you have any really sensitive corals,.. sps etc?
... oh, and what are your current water parameters, especially nitrate and phosphate.
What do you use for filtration media? I know you said you already use a phosphate reactor, but what else? Protein skimmer, algae scrubber... ??
snakeblitz33
Well-Known Member
The worst thing about cyano is it can produce it's own nitrate in order to grow! Cyano is one of the oldest living organisms on Earth.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Lois some interesting reading from the internet
Cyanobacteria appear in both salt- and freshwater setups and are known as red slime or blue-green algae.
Cyano is a hybrid, a mixture between plant and bacteria. It has therefore plant, as well as bacterial characteristics and is considered the evolutionary link between plants and bacteria. The “algae-bacteria” is always present in each setup. Cyano is unicellular. It cannot be detected even when using a common
microscope. What can be seen as slime are thousands of cells bound together by a protective slime coat, while some break away floating freely in the water.
Cyano, being a hybrid, is difficult to remove. Factors for growth are multiple and dealing with the algae-bacteria needs to be on multi levels in order to be effective.
Growth factors include, light, nitrogen, dissolved organic carbon, and CO2. All of these factors are basically interchangeable, meaning that one or two factors can be limited, but it won’t stop the algae-bacteria from utilizing the remaining factors, nor will it stun their growth. For the sake of completeness, some limiting factors influence the shape and appearance, but not the occurrence itself.
Light might be an obvious factor as Cyano is able to photosynthesize, but eliminating or reducing the light will not stop the growth. Recalling that Cyano is a hybrid, it will rely on bacterial characteristics to produce energy for growth. Reducing the access to carbon as an alternate approach has no effect by itself either, since the algae-bacteria can use CO2 as a sole carbon source.
A closer look at our lighting may reveal an aging bulb with diminishing wave-lengths. This may create favorable conditions. For the bacteria-algae light plays a more important role in freshwater setups. For saltwater, while light can’t be ruled out as a contributing factor, growth is dominated by dissolved carbon.
Cyanobacteria are often treated with antibiotics, addressing the symptom rather then the cause. Antibiotics are not very selective in what bacteria get killed. Cyano is gram negative (thin cell wall) in much the same way as the beneficial bacteria are. Many bacteria in fresh- and saltwater, especially the ones symbiotic with live rock and sand, are gram negative. All of the bacteria will be affected, either being killed or severely damaged. In consequence their ability to reproduce will also be negatively effected. The bacterial balance is delicate and any disturbance is likely to be responsible for larger problems and fatalities i.e. ammonia spikes, cloudy oxygen-depriving water.
Another consideration when using antibiotics is that bacteria will become increasingly resistant. This resistance may make the antibiotic useless if used for treating fish diseases.
Of course none of the contributing factors causing the cyano have been resolved by using antibiotics.
Dissolved organic carbon is an immediate result of anything organic that has died off and gets decomposed by bacteria. Dissolved organics are a food source
of the bacterial side of the bacteria-algae. Sources of dissolved carbon include, fish slime, algae, bacteria, digested/uneaten food, metabolic waste, live food, some aquarium additives etc.
At this point it is worth mentioning that the protective slime coat is pure organic material, adding to the carbon content once it decomposes. In other words, the algae-bacteria contribute to a higher carbon content of the water, adding woes in the fight for its removal.
Aquarium additives, especially pH controllers, contain bicarbonates. Bicarbonates convert into CO2, thus adding to the carbon levels. This also explains why Cyano is often found in saltwater; this setup has a naturally high bicarbonate level.
Limiting dissolved organic carbon can help, but the bacteria-algae is capable of consuming all the carbon needed derived from CO2. It is therefore important, especially for saltwater aquariums, to ensure a proper gas-off by water movement and adjustments of water flow. The more oxygen created, the better the degassing effect.
Skimmers are effective tools, but need to be maintained frequently. A too small or ineffective protein skimmer, high waste loads, or a combination thereof will increase the dissolved carbon level.
As with all types of algae, any uncontrolled growth indicates an imbalanced system, a disturbance of the biological/chemical equilibrium. Cyano is overtaking the aquarium because of a high nutrient availability. Nitrogen-nitrate is taken up from the water column, dissolved organic carbon is in abundance, and the wavelength of the light has reached favorable conditions for photosynthesis to take place more vigorously.
Another interesting fact to know is that Cyano generally starts in areas where water flow is restricted.
Cyanobacteria appear in both salt- and freshwater setups and are known as red slime or blue-green algae.
Cyano is a hybrid, a mixture between plant and bacteria. It has therefore plant, as well as bacterial characteristics and is considered the evolutionary link between plants and bacteria. The “algae-bacteria” is always present in each setup. Cyano is unicellular. It cannot be detected even when using a common
Cyano, being a hybrid, is difficult to remove. Factors for growth are multiple and dealing with the algae-bacteria needs to be on multi levels in order to be effective.
Growth factors include, light, nitrogen, dissolved organic carbon, and CO2. All of these factors are basically interchangeable, meaning that one or two factors can be limited, but it won’t stop the algae-bacteria from utilizing the remaining factors, nor will it stun their growth. For the sake of completeness, some limiting factors influence the shape and appearance, but not the occurrence itself.
Light might be an obvious factor as Cyano is able to photosynthesize, but eliminating or reducing the light will not stop the growth. Recalling that Cyano is a hybrid, it will rely on bacterial characteristics to produce energy for growth. Reducing the access to carbon as an alternate approach has no effect by itself either, since the algae-bacteria can use CO2 as a sole carbon source.
Cyanobacteria are often treated with antibiotics, addressing the symptom rather then the cause. Antibiotics are not very selective in what bacteria get killed. Cyano is gram negative (thin cell wall) in much the same way as the beneficial bacteria are. Many bacteria in fresh- and saltwater, especially the ones symbiotic with live rock and sand, are gram negative. All of the bacteria will be affected, either being killed or severely damaged. In consequence their ability to reproduce will also be negatively effected. The bacterial balance is delicate and any disturbance is likely to be responsible for larger problems and fatalities i.e. ammonia spikes, cloudy oxygen-depriving water.
Another consideration when using antibiotics is that bacteria will become increasingly resistant. This resistance may make the antibiotic useless if used for treating fish diseases.
Of course none of the contributing factors causing the cyano have been resolved by using antibiotics.
Dissolved organic carbon is an immediate result of anything organic that has died off and gets decomposed by bacteria. Dissolved organics are a food source
At this point it is worth mentioning that the protective slime coat is pure organic material, adding to the carbon content once it decomposes. In other words, the algae-bacteria contribute to a higher carbon content of the water, adding woes in the fight for its removal.
Aquarium additives, especially pH controllers, contain bicarbonates. Bicarbonates convert into CO2, thus adding to the carbon levels. This also explains why Cyano is often found in saltwater; this setup has a naturally high bicarbonate level.
Limiting dissolved organic carbon can help, but the bacteria-algae is capable of consuming all the carbon needed derived from CO2. It is therefore important, especially for saltwater aquariums, to ensure a proper gas-off by water movement and adjustments of water flow. The more oxygen created, the better the degassing effect.
Skimmers are effective tools, but need to be maintained frequently. A too small or ineffective protein skimmer, high waste loads, or a combination thereof will increase the dissolved carbon level.
As with all types of algae, any uncontrolled growth indicates an imbalanced system, a disturbance of the biological/chemical equilibrium. Cyano is overtaking the aquarium because of a high nutrient availability. Nitrogen-nitrate is taken up from the water column, dissolved organic carbon is in abundance, and the wavelength of the light has reached favorable conditions for photosynthesis to take place more vigorously.
Another interesting fact to know is that Cyano generally starts in areas where water flow is restricted.
florida joe
Well-Known Member
In my view cyano bacteria is unavoidable if you change parameters suddenly
I'd agree with this statement in 99.9% of cases. The rest are simply either pollution, or general poor husbandry with regards to system wide nutrient loads..
And likewise..
Quote:
It is normally caused by the hobbyist through inexperience and not taking on board how sensitive the environment is that he or she is trying to maintain
Again...This has been the case in the vast majority of situations I have looked into, and Ive done it myself a few times over the years..No biggy. just something you learn by experience and investigation..
fwiw: I voted that I currently have Cyanobacteria using a different brand.
The reason why ive voted this way is quite simple. Up untill I stripped the main tank down recently for a rebuild (the sump tower and 4 tanks are still running) the tank had run predominantly on Instant Ocean. and you know what...I still and allways have had cyanobacteria growing in there, usually a bit across the tops of baffles, and a bit on the surface of my chaetomorphyllia bed..(as alot of people do)...the rest of the tank was pristine.
The truth of it is that Cyano exists in all systems in one location or another, and in varying size populations...It may be a large matt across cirtain surfaces that are prone to high levels of DOC (across wiers where it feeds from the high nutrient miniscus layer) or it can just sit at very small levels in more stagnant areas like floating algae beds where it feeds off surface scum where high levels of coral mucus have collected. But make no bones about it...If you have a tank, you have a population of Cyano bacteria present...somwhere.
The problems start when you change the chemistry of the system to any significant degree (and im not just talking Ca/Alk/Mg etc) there are a whole host of other elements in salt that can affect the closed environment as a whole if you suddenly alter them...and alot of them you simply cant test for with hobbyist kits.
The same applies to inconsistant top up causing wavering salinity, poor temperature control, even having all your windows closed in the house at the onset of winter causing changes to ambiant pH levels from what the tank may have had over the summer months etc etc...All of these and more can trigger off a Cyanobacteria outbreak, becouse you fundamentally shift or temporarily interupt major dissolution and precipitation process within your LR and substrates that rely on chemistry stability to function at a constant rate in comparison to other processes within the system.
For Cyanobacteria, a substrate or porous medium such as LR that has had diffusion interupted or imbalanced for any reason is like a fully laid out dinner table just waiting for someone to sit down and take advantage...Remember the Cyano is there already..its usually just at such low levels under stable conditions that you just dont notice it so much, but as soon as you lay that table by way of disrupting stable diffusion etc, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will dive in and take advantage, only dissapearing again after it has run out of food...And this is where the rub is..
If your already testing and showing extremely low nutrient levels in the main water column, all you do by doing even more water changes than you need, is upset that balanced system even more, becouse you keep shifting the perameters again...The more you change it (bigger water changes) the more you introduce water above the substrate layers and LR that is of a completely differing chemistry to that held within these regions...Then the laws of physics and chemistry kick in to balance out those differences...whats gone in, must come out and visa versa untill both are the same or as near as the two environments will allow. Once things have balanced out again and stability has returned, is usually where you start to see a die off of cyanobacteria as its uptake ability outsrips the now lower supply...
In essence im saying much as David said....
Cyano blooms are not directly attributed to the salt or a particular brand, (unless its a batch issue where the chemistry is seriously skew, which if you feel that's the case you should send a sample with a polite letter to the supplyer to test...lets be honest...every manufacturer has an occasional batch issue in any industry...)...Its more linked to changes 'we' instigate in the system, that upset any stable regime we have had up untill that point in time...
I'd agree with this statement in 99.9% of cases. The rest are simply either pollution, or general poor husbandry with regards to system wide nutrient loads..
And likewise..
Quote:
It is normally caused by the hobbyist through inexperience and not taking on board how sensitive the environment is that he or she is trying to maintain
Again...This has been the case in the vast majority of situations I have looked into, and Ive done it myself a few times over the years..No biggy. just something you learn by experience and investigation..
fwiw: I voted that I currently have Cyanobacteria using a different brand.
The reason why ive voted this way is quite simple. Up untill I stripped the main tank down recently for a rebuild (the sump tower and 4 tanks are still running) the tank had run predominantly on Instant Ocean. and you know what...I still and allways have had cyanobacteria growing in there, usually a bit across the tops of baffles, and a bit on the surface of my chaetomorphyllia bed..(as alot of people do)...the rest of the tank was pristine.
The truth of it is that Cyano exists in all systems in one location or another, and in varying size populations...It may be a large matt across cirtain surfaces that are prone to high levels of DOC (across wiers where it feeds from the high nutrient miniscus layer) or it can just sit at very small levels in more stagnant areas like floating algae beds where it feeds off surface scum where high levels of coral mucus have collected. But make no bones about it...If you have a tank, you have a population of Cyano bacteria present...somwhere.
The problems start when you change the chemistry of the system to any significant degree (and im not just talking Ca/Alk/Mg etc) there are a whole host of other elements in salt that can affect the closed environment as a whole if you suddenly alter them...and alot of them you simply cant test for with hobbyist kits.
The same applies to inconsistant top up causing wavering salinity, poor temperature control, even having all your windows closed in the house at the onset of winter causing changes to ambiant pH levels from what the tank may have had over the summer months etc etc...All of these and more can trigger off a Cyanobacteria outbreak, becouse you fundamentally shift or temporarily interupt major dissolution and precipitation process within your LR and substrates that rely on chemistry stability to function at a constant rate in comparison to other processes within the system.
For Cyanobacteria, a substrate or porous medium such as LR that has had diffusion interupted or imbalanced for any reason is like a fully laid out dinner table just waiting for someone to sit down and take advantage...Remember the Cyano is there already..its usually just at such low levels under stable conditions that you just dont notice it so much, but as soon as you lay that table by way of disrupting stable diffusion etc, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will dive in and take advantage, only dissapearing again after it has run out of food...And this is where the rub is..
If your already testing and showing extremely low nutrient levels in the main water column, all you do by doing even more water changes than you need, is upset that balanced system even more, becouse you keep shifting the perameters again...The more you change it (bigger water changes) the more you introduce water above the substrate layers and LR that is of a completely differing chemistry to that held within these regions...Then the laws of physics and chemistry kick in to balance out those differences...whats gone in, must come out and visa versa untill both are the same or as near as the two environments will allow. Once things have balanced out again and stability has returned, is usually where you start to see a die off of cyanobacteria as its uptake ability outsrips the now lower supply...
In essence im saying much as David said....
Cyano blooms are not directly attributed to the salt or a particular brand, (unless its a batch issue where the chemistry is seriously skew, which if you feel that's the case you should send a sample with a polite letter to the supplyer to test...lets be honest...every manufacturer has an occasional batch issue in any industry...)...Its more linked to changes 'we' instigate in the system, that upset any stable regime we have had up untill that point in time...
meowzer
Moderator
OK...thanks Joe.....I read the whole thing....not sure I understand what to do though.....I am constantly maintaining this tank....
here are a couple of pics....a spot on the rocks, a spot on the sand, and the whole tank...nitrates and phosphates are at 0....I run a Hurricone Cat 3 e external skimmer, a phosphate reactor with GFO that waws changed 2 weeks ago, a cascade 1500 canister filter with chemi-pure elite that also was changed 2 weeks ago
2 MP40's, 1 Koralia 1400....and the cascade has a flow bar....also I have a sump so I have flow from my mag 9 return pump
here are a couple of pics....a spot on the rocks, a spot on the sand, and the whole tank...nitrates and phosphates are at 0....I run a Hurricone Cat 3 e external skimmer, a phosphate reactor with GFO that waws changed 2 weeks ago, a cascade 1500 canister filter with chemi-pure elite that also was changed 2 weeks ago
2 MP40's, 1 Koralia 1400....and the cascade has a flow bar....also I have a sump so I have flow from my mag 9 return pump
florida joe
Well-Known Member
I have dealt with cyano in the past using Chemi Clean Red Slime Remover with good results. I have also stopped an outbreak with just syphoning out what I saw developing. I would use the chemi clean just do exactly as they instruct
meowzer
Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/388026/red-slime-remover-or-chemiclean#post_3419190
I have dealt with cyano in the past using Chemi Clean Red Slime Remover with good results. I have also stopped an outbreak with just syphoning out what I saw developing. I would use the chemi clean just do exactly as they instruct
Thanks Joe.....I feel at this point I have done everything I can think of....everything we tell others to do + SOME
I HATE the idea of using something on this tank...but I am losing the battle here, and think I need some assistance...even if it is chemicals
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/388026/red-slime-remover-or-chemiclean#post_3419190
I have dealt with cyano in the past using Chemi Clean Red Slime Remover with good results. I have also stopped an outbreak with just syphoning out what I saw developing. I would use the chemi clean just do exactly as they instruct
Thanks Joe.....I feel at this point I have done everything I can think of....everything we tell others to do + SOME
I HATE the idea of using something on this tank...but I am losing the battle here, and think I need some assistance...even if it is chemicals
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Lois chemicals are just an other tool in our tool box used wisely they are a great asset
acrylic51
Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/388026/red-slime-remover-or-chemiclean#post_3419204
Lois chemicals are just an other tool in our tool box used wisely they are a great asset
Agree!!!!
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///t/388026/red-slime-remover-or-chemiclean#post_3419204
Lois chemicals are just an other tool in our tool box used wisely they are a great asset
Agree!!!!
meowzer
Moderator
I guess I just need to get it ordered then....LOL....
altho the chemi clean instructions scare me
......you have to turn off your skimmer and IMMEDIATELY do a 20% w/c????? is that right??
The REd slime remover, you only adjust your skimmer (I would turn it of on the 225) and it says does not require water changes
SO IDK NOW
altho the chemi clean instructions scare me
The REd slime remover, you only adjust your skimmer (I would turn it of on the 225) and it says does not require water changes
SO IDK NOW
