reef tanks???? pros, please help..

mujtba

mujtba

Member
Hi,
Okay I have some questions about a reef tank. If you read this, please answer all my questions and not just some.

I have a freshwater tank right now and I wanted to convert to reef. I just made my freshwater tank about 4 weeks ago, but reefs are cool. I actually started with a reef for a week, bought some items, made it for a week, then i kept hearing you need to spend an arm and leg for it, so i went to freshwater, but i want to go back to saltwater. I already spent about $1000+ on everything total. :mad:
Anyway, here is what I currently own in my tank which I am hoping can be used in a saltwater tank also:
-55Gal tank
-500GPH Tetratec PF500 Power Filter (look it up if you havent seen it)
"link violation"
-Two 15inch air bubble stones for extra circulation and oxygen
-Light cover hood
In order to build a reef, I know I need the following:
-50Lbs of Live Rock
-New gravel
-More watts light
-Protein skimmer
-Sea salt
Not that Id do it, but Im just curious what will happen if you use regular iodine salt in the tank? Just asking for knowledge. :notsure:
Also can saltwater fish live in regular tap water? I know freshwater fish die, but what about saltwater? I know some people who just added salt to tap water. Well do I just add salt and then tap water or do I need to use Stress Coat to dechlorinate it first? What happens if you do not use Stress Coat? :happyfish
Now does everyone and their mom use a wet/dry filter or can my current filter work with a reef? I will have a lot of live rock, so that should supply bio filtration. So has anyone used a normal filter or is everyone with a reef filthy rich and getting a wet/dry $300+ or canister filter? :eek:
Also, to start the cycle, I was told to use shrimp. So do I buy just frozen shrimp from the grocery store and toss it in the tank for 4 weeks? If so, what size shrimp? Jumbo size, small ones, etc? How many for a 55G tank to start and finish cycle before I get real fish? :thinking:
I thought that the cycle starts after the ammonia rises, and becomes nitrates finally to produce the bacteria. So dont we need fish to produce wastes to start the cycle? How can dead shrimp produce ammonia? Correct me if Im wrong. :help:
If fish get ICK, how do we treat it? We cannot add medicine with live rock, so what do we do? How do fish get ICK? Does ICK just form in water? I read if ICK is on a fish, nothing can get it off and you just need to wait for the parasite to fall off. So then what is the procedure? Do I buy another tank, spend an extra $400 on a fish tank just to quarintine? Please keep in mind I am not the son of a millionaire.

For a reef, I need more lighting. So do I just get bulbs with more watts? Or do I need a whole new light hood? Does my LFS sell that or is it something I need to get built at home depot? :scared:
Please add some space and just answer the questions under each paragraph for clarity.
Thanks in advance!
 
salty cheese

salty cheese

Active Member
You can start here it will be one of the best investments you can make in this hobby.
The other one is time, don't try to go too fast. Read and learn, listen and learn. This board is a great resource for info, if you take the time.
Do a search on the board for the following:cycling,dsb,sumps,skimmers, RO/DI and test kits and if I missed something maybe someone else will help me out.:D
The air stones are out and I'm pretty sure the filter is too, lighting, I would guess is out too lacking any info.
Welcome to the board
 
mujtba

mujtba

Member
Has anyone already experienced what I asked above? I would appreciate real answers from users themselves rather than go and buy a book. That is why I posted in a message board. I already know I can search and read books, but Im not finding my answers. Is there anyone who knows the answers or were they too hard? :(
 
theishkid

theishkid

Member
Hey man what's up. First off I'm no pro, but I have been in the same exact boat you're in, went from fresh to Salt, didn't really know what to do. After talking to quite a few people I have been successful for almost a year and a half with my reef.
Couldn't get a great look at the power filter you have but as long as it has a biowheel you should be good to go after you let the water cycle for a while.
I'm not sure if you want to use the bubble stones or not. I've never had anyone tell me to put more oxygen in the tank. Consider powerheads for more circulation. (Or consider adding another biowheel filter in place of a powerhead. You get more circulation and more filtration for about the same price as a nice powerhead.
You know about the rock... good job!
Instead of gravel consider sand... I had gravel in my tank for almost a year and then switched to sand (that was a pain). The sand looks better, it's better for some of the clean up crew you're gonna need, and it helps in the overall filtration of the tank. Not to mention the fact that it's part of the natural habitat.
You do need more lights. You've already got the daytime lights that came with the tank i'm assuming. Consider adding a Power Compact of some type to go with your daytime lights. Plan on spending some money here. Good lighting other than rock will be your most expensive item.
Everyone has their own preferences... I was told it was better not to run a protein skimmer on a reef. It takes out some of the needed nutrients of the tank. I'm not positive on this one but I've been doing good for the past year and a half.
You do need the sea salt or you could consider buying the water premixed. This method is much easier but adds a nice little expense ever coupld of weeks.
Sorry I can't tell you about the iodine salt but it is not the same thing as the sea salt. Do not use it. It will not help... in fact it will probably cause harm.
No the fish cannot live in tap water. There's all sorts of nasty elements in the stuff. It's safe (sort of) for us humans to drink but the little fishies can't handles all the bad stuff. It's like the fish version of pollution. I'm not sure what will happen when you use stress coat. Honestly I either buy my saltwater made already and I used RO/DI water for top offs.
Your filter should be fine. I'm using a Marineland BioWheel 400 and a Biowheel 280 along with the rock and sand. It's working fine. And it also worked fine when I just had the 400 which is probably the equivalent of what you have.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with using frozen shrimp. Are sure they didn't mean to get a shrimp to make sure it doesn't die while you are cycling? I would just set everything up and let it go for a couple of weeks. Then maybe buy a damsel or somthing to make sure it doesn't die. I bought a clown on the second day of converting to salt (dumbest thing i've done) and just out of sheer luck it is still alive.
Hey sorry to jump and run without answering the rest. just know that you need to go to the LFS to get your lights. Home depot lights don't work. You should do a search for lighting cause that's a whole other mess.
As far as the Ick... certain cleaner shrimps can eat the ick off of the fish. You're gonna need a shrimp or two anyway to clean the tank and they even clean the tank. Sorry I forgot the name of the shrimp but it's the one from Finding Nemo in the dentist aquarium. One good note is to just stay away from tangs to help avoid Ick. If they get stressed they will get it and spread it to other tank mates. Tangs contract it easier than any other fish. I had to learn the hard way with my 2 tangs. Hope I helped but I'm in a hurry. Good luck!
 
michelle13

michelle13

Member
I might be able to help a little.
1. Reef tanks are expensive, if you don't want to spend the money then don't bother.
2. Not sure about the filter, I don't run one on my 29 gal.
3. Bubble stones are worthless in a saltwater tank and create too much salt creep.
4. The lighting will depend on what you want to keep in the tank. Some corals require very little light, others require a lot. But you don't have to upgrade the lighting until you are ready to start adding corals.
5. If you are not going to run a filter, you'll need more live rock. I have 45 pounds in a 29gal.
6. You would need to buy sand and then seed it with live sand if you want to use a deep sand bed for filtration.
7. Yes you would need a protein skimmer. I use a Kent Nautilus and have had great success with it.
8. As far as the salt question goes this is all I could find:
"Table salt (sodioum chloride) is only one salt found in the ocean, and actually forms only a very small percentage of the total salts found in commercial aquarium mixtures. The major salts are potassium salts (also called bitter salts) such as potassium chloride, potassium iodide, etc. Epsom salt is an example of a bitter salt, but you can't use that alone either. Bottom Line No, you cannot substitute table salt or any single salt for a commercial mix, because you would throw off the ratio of these naturally-occuring salts and that will eventually kill your fish."
Makes sense to me!
9. Yes you need to use some type of decholrinator if you are using tap water. Just about everyone recommends the use of RO/DI water, which you can buy at Wal-mart for cheap.
10. I don't have any type of filtration other than live rock and a deep sand bed.
11. You can just buy a couple of raw shrimp from the store to through in to start the cycle. The decomposition fo the shrimp creates ammonia, which the bacteria use to create nitrite, which is then turned into nitrate. You will need to monitor these levels to determine when the cycle is over. You do NOT need to use live fish to cycle a tank.
12. If your fish get ich you will need to quarantine them in another tank. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. If you quarantine everything you should never have ich in your main tank. Since you can only add one fish at a time then you can use a fairly small tank to quarantine, nothing fancy. I used a 10 gal and treated with hyposalinity (for more info on that go to the disease forum).
13. Lighting: as I stated earlier it depends on what you want to keep. There are some good places on the internet to buy lighting, no need to have home depot build it.
Hope this helps and remember this is all my opinion and should only be used as a place to start your research.
 
mujtba

mujtba

Member
thanks so much for the answers. yes it helped and I appreciate you guys taking the time to reply. I hope some other users decide to help a noob out. all i can do is ask from people who already did it... :confused:
theishkid- my power filter does 500GPH. Your Marineland 400 does 400GPH, and you said it worked before you got the extra 280, so I will stick to my 500 for now.
michelle- how do you not use a filter? dont you need something to clean the tank? or does all the wastes decompose?
so I should get about 75LBS live rock for my 55Gal?
What is RO/DI? Stand for?
appreciate all the answers and everyone can post their comments..
thanks
 
zanemoseley

zanemoseley

Active Member
The first thing you need to figure out is if you have the funds to keep a succesful reef tank, In my opinion you must use RO/DI water, a skimmer and LR for a successful tank. I'd also suggest using a fine 1" bed of sand. No other filtration is required besides the skimmer, Lr and the occasional carbon. Here's some expenses you can count on to START your tank.
RO/DI filter $150-$200
Skimmer $200 min
75lb LR $200 min
sand $40
dual MH setup w/bulbs w/reflector $350
so there's another $1000 and that doesn't include fish,inverts, and corals
I don't mean to scare you out of it but just be aware of the costs to keep a fun tank, if you try to cut corners you'll probably be plagued with nusance algae that will ruin all your fun and the tank as well.
 
theishkid

theishkid

Member
The one thing you want to do is research. Like I said before what one person says another will completly dissagree. Maybe not completly but at least everyone will have their own opinions. For example you half already seen in these post. One guy recommends protein skimming and one guy doesn't. Go to your local book store, read up. Invest in a couple of books for reference on how to set up and maintain a reef aquarium. These can be life savers. Then later on inverst in a book or two for fish and inverts and corals. Setting up a saltwater tank has never been easier, but still requires dedication and money.
 
mujtba

mujtba

Member
wow, i make $50,000 a year. and this seems to be expensive for me. are all of you guys wealthy? only wealthy folks can enjoy the pleasures of a reef?

i dont understand, i mean if this is the case, then why read a book? thats just another mans opinion also. I may as well just not ask any questions and try my luck, right?
why have a message board when everytime I ask a question, I am told to research. Whats this board for if we cannot ask for help from people who have already been in the game for years.
i mean one guy says he had his reef for over a year and used his regular filter and it worked great. so why do i need to spend $300 on another filter? He also said, and I believe it was theishkid, that he did not use a protein skimmer cuz it removes certain nutrients.
so I think to start off, if he managed to make it work without a wet dry filter and skimmer, then I should also, right? Or is his fish and corals specialy made just for his tank? :rolleyes:
some of the guys in these boards have been doing this for years. how hard is it to explain what their process was in the beginning. :notsure:
as far as not using a filter at all goes, how does that work? does all the wastes get 'eaten' by the bacteria?
cuz for freshwater, filters remove the wastes...
thanks everyone for their posts :help:
 
C

caryn_ia

Guest
I make less than half of what you make a year. But I think that has helped not hindered me. It forced me to move slowly. That way, I could make an informed desicion(sp) before I purchased anything, whether it be a skimmer or a fish. I can't give you much advise besides, sit back and read awhile. I too was way excited to start, but you'll regret it if you don't find out what you really need, vs buying the first thing you see at LFS.
P.S. There are many different ways to do things in this hobby, that's why everyone can't tell you The way to start. But if you read a little you can find out what works best and go from there. Good luck to you! :D
 
theishkid

theishkid

Member
Hey mujtba I don't mean to sound like I was talking down to you or anything. I'm just like you... I believe reefs are beautiful and wanted to enjoy my own. But I would like to clear up a few things.
The only reasons I say to read up on it is because a book becomes a resource to look back on all the time and won't just tell you how to do something but maybe why you are doing it. I recommend something as new as possible so it will touch on all the new technologies.
Plus because aquarium technology has grown and improved in the last few years, some of these guys may be successful with an underground filter while others are using biological filtration like myself. This is why I recommend a book, it can teach you about all differnt ways. Plus most of the books I have are written with all these certified scientist and all that good junk so you know their creditable.
Second, (and you might have only said it by exaggeration,) but the emporer 400 is only about 70 bucks and the 280 was about 50.
To answer why I THINK everyone dances around giving straight answers and telling you to research is because some of us are affraid of being dogged on by the "experts" on these message boards. What if you say the wrong thing? Then people are quick to tell you how wrong you are... that's why people like myself say "in my own opinion" so much.
I was just like you when I first started out. I wanted the quickest answer to what do I need to make my tank. I recieved the same answers you are getting and only now do I understand and so will you a year from now. There just is not one right straight answer.
To answer your first and most important question. No I am not wealthy. I am a poor college kid making 6.50 an hour working 20 hours a week at my internship. Thank god I live with my parents who are generous to buy me water or a coral every now and then. No my corals aren't made for me... even though that would be cool! I think most people are just looking out for people that are new to the hobby. I know I was supprised by expenses here and there and if I knew about them ahead of time I don't think I would have been able to do this, however now I am glad I did.
Once again though... sorry for giving you run arounds to questions and making you feel like you can't enjoy this beautiful hobby. Good luck. Let me know if you have any other questions or would like to know more about my setup.
 
mujtba

mujtba

Member
theiskid- i know no one is an expert here. all i want is what people did on their own tank. if 10 people post their setups and answer my questions on what they have and did, then i can balance it out. ofcourse i dont need people to tell me, you need to spend another $1000 dollars and thats without the fish and corals and nothing else works. hopefuly kerry wins and opens up better jobs. i mean, its insane. anyway, so you said that you used a filter and no skimmer. and you're poor like myself
, so i suppose i can follow what u have going.
do you have any pics of your tank? how big is it?
you as of now, have no skimmer and only those 2 hang on filters? a sand bed? how much LR? how many corals and fish?
also, did you ever get ick? how did you treat it?
thankss for ur help
 
theishkid

theishkid

Member
I'm at work right now but I'll shoot a picture of it in a few hours when i get home.
My setup is as follows.
46Gallon Bowfront
Daytime light ballist (the ones that come with the tank)
Coral Life 96 watt 50/50 light.
Marineland BioWheel 400
Marineland Biowheel 280
Powerhead(I forgot which one but this is optional anyway)
Heater (I forgot this one too)
I probably have around 50 to 60 lbs of live rock and I bought 2 bags of live sand. I only needed one but since you have a 55 gallon I would recommend 2 bags for you.
I'm sorry I didn't get a good look at your filter... is it the kind that has a canister spinning (a bio wheel)? If it is then you'd be good to go. You don't need a skimmer with a biowheel. This is what I'm talking about with everybody having a different opinion. Biowheels are fairly new and a skimmer removes more nutrients that things need. The biological filtration of rock, sand and your biowheel are all you need. Also... you don't NEED a ton of rock to put in there and you can always add more later as long as it's cured. WHen I started my guy recommended a pound per gallon as a minimum. YOu can put as little or as much rock as you want. The more you have the more filtration you have though.
I have had ick before. But only with tangs. I bought a quarintene (i know i spell bad) and went that route but was told to get a cleaner shrimp that picks the ick off the fish. But I haven't had any problems with it since I don't do tangs anymore. And if you don't listen to anything else I say... listen to this. DO NOT GET TANGS when you're just starting out. Once my tank was cycled that was the first thing I got and it worked out for 3 months and then got sick and messed up a whole bunch of stuff. Wait a while till you grow more accustomed to this before you try them.
RIght now I have 5 fish (small fish). 10 or so corals. 2 shrimp, 2 emerald crabs, and a bunch of snails and such to clean the sand.
I'll get you some pics later this afternoon.
 
zanemoseley

zanemoseley

Active Member
I'm not trying to tell you what you HAVE to do, I'm just giving you the most widely proven setup for setup of a reef tank. I researched for 7 months before I started my tank, my tank has been up for about 7 months and so far is a success. A book will get the basics out of the way so you can ask more specific questions. A wet/dry is definately not needed if you run a skimmer and LR, actually I don't see many large systems that run them. Most large tanks I've seen focus on low bio load and extreme organic removal which include a protein skimmer, adequate LR, occasional carbon, low to medium stocking of fish, and some are experimenting with phosphate reduction via a phosphate reactor. I'm currently trying out the phosphate reactor but I dont' wanna reccomend it to you because some people with large SPS tanks are attributing rapid tissue necrosis to the media. I'm really not trying to confuse you, just give you an overview of common practices.
Here's a VERY good book that will get you started.
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists
by Robert M. Fenner
By all means read up and feel confident about what you're purchasing and why you're getting it as opposed to just picking out a bunch of stuff you think you need. I'd also reccomend settining up a sump now or in the future so put all your equiment in so as to not clutter up the display tank.
 
zanemoseley

zanemoseley

Active Member

Originally posted by Magic_Carp
You don't need a skimmer with a biowheel.
I don't mean to sound like a know it all but this is absolutely as far from the truth as you can get. A biowheel is simply more biological filtration via bacteria which breaks down organics in the water, this is simiar to the bacteria found in LR, a skimmer removes vast amounts of organics before they are allowed to break down.
 
rossim

rossim

Member

Originally posted by mujtba
theiskid- i know no one is an expert here. all i want is what people did on their own tank. if 10 people post their setups and answer my questions on what they have and did, then i can balance it out. ofcourse i dont need people to tell me, you need to spend another $1000 dollars and thats without the fish and corals and nothing else works. hopefuly kerry wins and opens up better jobs. i mean, its insane. anyway, so you said that you used a filter and no skimmer. and you're poor like myself
, so i suppose i can follow what u have going.
do you have any pics of your tank? how big is it?
you as of now, have no skimmer and only those 2 hang on filters? a sand bed? how much LR? how many corals and fish?
also, did you ever get ick? how did you treat it?
thankss for ur help
There are a lot of ways to put a reef together depending on what you want to accomplish. What types of coral do you want to keep. Everyone tells you to research the boards because if you do a search on "Protein Skimmer" you'll get a ton of posts about them and a bunch of threads where other people have asked the same thing. Reading through those replies will give you much more than 10 different responses and then you can make your decision. Or, if at that point you still don't know what direction you want to go in, you can post a more specific question (instead of a bunch of questions at once).
The number one thing you need in this hobby is patience. If you don't have the time to do any research on the hobby, then you probably won't have any time to perform the upkeep that is required to keep a sucessful tank. I'm not trying to discurage you from starting a reef tank, just letting you know that it takes time. I'm a newbie myself and spent a month just researching these boards before even making my first post.
 
theishkid

theishkid

Member
Look... I don't know it all and I don't pretend to. But the "fish god" at my LFS seems to know it all. (Maybe not all but he talks so far above my head it seems like it sometimes). I'm sure i'm wrong saying that it removes nutrients needed for biological filtration, I'm not an expert I don't know what it does. But this guy at the LFS which is a family operated store has been doing saltwater for 30+ years so I've pretty much taken all of his advice. The main display tank in his store was put together by his late father and has been running for 20+ years. Apparently over that time filters have come and gone, wet/dry filters that used to be there are now replaced with the newer biowheel filters (also on all of the for sale tanks). Not a single one (that is in plain sight) has a skimmer on it. I was told by this man not to run a skimmer. I was told by two other fish stores that I don't need a skimmer. I don't know how creditable the other two are... but when there is a tank has been set up for 20 some years and I try to copy the same setup, plus I have success for a year and a half... well I would say that doesn't make it the farthest thing from the truth. You deceide. I'm not a marine biologest I don't know what is right or wrong. But by trial and error I have success without a skimmer... and so does this tank that has been running for 20 years now. I tried to call and ask him why they don't run a skimmer but unfortunitly they are closed on Monday's and Tuesdays.
 
zanemoseley

zanemoseley

Active Member
I'm not trying to get into a pissing match, I'm not trying to say I know everything but in the time I've posted 1300 posts here and 400 at another large site I've read probably 20x that many threads and I'm saying 90% of successful tanks over 20gal run skimmers. YES its possible to run one without a skimmer but is also possible to run a tank using only tap water but is by far not the best bet. I'm trying to give him advice on the easiest way to set up a successful tank from my experience. I'd be willing to bet you'd be singing a different tune if you hooked up a high quality skimmer to your tank and saw the junk it pulled out of your water at the same time you biowheel filter is running. I'm not saying canister filters or HOB biowheel filters are bad but they have their place, I have a penguin 170 on my 10gal QT tank. As far as LFS, some are good with SW and some pretend to be, also its been my experience that old reefers tend to stick with what they have been using for years and are reluctant to try new things which may be why you LFS doesn't use a skimmer on their old tank. Also a tank that old will have a great amount of natural filtration in the rock and sand.
 
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