reef tanks???? pros, please help..

[sammyg]

Originally posted by CBSHARK
Typical left winger, you get criticized and you let the unwarranted, unfounded personal attacks fly.
Hey now, unwarranted, unfounded personal attacks are used by extremists on both sides (ever heard of Ann Coulter?). Don't let this guy's ranting serve as an excuse to put down an entire group of people.

 

[cbshark]

mujtba, I will be civil now, and if you would like some helpful advice and you really want a reef, try a nano. I set up a 5 gallon nano stocked full of corals and it set me back maybe $500 max. If you really are into this, research ALOT and you can have a killer tank for not much at all. Nanos aren't that hard to do if you are willing to take the time to do what is required. The worst part of a nano is that occurences happen on a greater scale the smaller the tank is. Heat becomes more of an issue as does overcrowding. But if you do it right, check out what can be accomplished.

 

[zanemoseley]

christ, I go to psychology class for two measly hours and you guys are about to kill each other. If I was a mod I'd have this thread locked up tighter than mujtba's wallet (sorry couldnt' resist).
I'd suggest searching this forum and other to get the basic concepts if you don't want to get a book, btw your public library will probably have some SW books althought they may be old.
Also a $40 skimmer will be a piece of you know what and you'll be replacing it with a better skimmer and eating the $40.

 

[mujtba]

seems that the poll here shows 2% more people with hang ons, than wet/drys:
* Links not allowed *
thanks shark for being civilized. that reef looks hot.
i didnt say ill buy a new $40 skimmer. i said id get a $40 skimmer. ofcourse i wont try to save $20 and buy a piece of ----.
haha nice wallet joke. i dont want u all to think im so broke. but i have bills, which is the only reason i wanted something affordable.
i can get a book. i will do that. its fine.
i read online about refuguims, sumps, and all this other stuf.. im like what the helllllllll!!!!! in freshwater all u need is a filter. haha..
theishkid seemed to be the closest to what i can do.. but i still am researchin for best way...
thanks all

 

[rossim]

Unfortantally the hobby is expensive. Especially when you are setting up the tank. I've spent well over $1500 already on a 29 gallon tank and its only a month old.
No, you do not need a protein skimmer to have a sucessful reef tank. But having a protein skimmer will not hurt anything and will raise your chances of having a sucessful reef tank. This is a piece of equipment that you can wait a couple of months to buy.
The first thing you need to do is get your LR and LS (live rock and live sand). I think you mentioned that you have about 50 lbs of rock already? In a 55 gallon tank I'd probably double that amount. With good circulation (powerheads) and enough LR, you don't need a HOB wet/dry filter. The LR and LS is the biological filter. Fish waste is consumed and processed by the bacteria and other oraganisms which make up the ecosystem.
So if you want to start the tank, the first things you need are:
1 - Tank - you already have that
2 - RO/DI water - do not use tap water! There are many elements in tap water that will harm your tank, especially in the long run. You can buy RO/DI water from almost any LFS that sells SW fish.
3 - LS - Depending on if you want a DSB or a SSB will depend on how much sand you need. You might be able to find SouthDown sand at a home depot that you can use and its cheap. However, if you do that, get a scoop of LS from a LFS to "seed" the sand.
3 - LR - I would go with about 100 lbs to start with.
4 - Heater - Tank temp should be 78-82 degrees
5 - Powerheads - You'll probably need two of them. One on either side of the tank. Might need more since you need lots of flow.
At this point you have to let the tank cycle. Do this by throwing in a raw frozen shrimp (like the one that you would eat). As it decays it'll produce the ammonia that is needed to kick off the cycle. Now all of this will be expensive on its own. But the cycle will take about a month to complete (no money needs to be spent).
What type of lighting do you have. This is usually the most expensive part of the hobby. Corals need excellent lighting and you can expect to spend anywhere starting at $300 for it (a guess). Other considerations to buy are test kits.

 

[rossim]

Originally posted by mujtba
seems that the poll here shows 2% more people with hang ons, than wet/drys:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/gi/pag...3363&linkback=
I think you'll find that most people don't have any type of "filter". They don't use a HOB or wet/dry (which I thought were the same thing). A lot don't even use any types of bio-balls. All you really need for filtration is enough LR and water movement. Now this is not true in nano tanks, but in a 55 you shouldn't need either if you have enough LR and water movement.

 

[cbshark]

That's all well and good, but it says saltwater not reef. Hey, you're entitled to your choice, but i can guarantee that if you go this route, you will be changing it out in the future if you really get into the reef thing. The only reason I can see for choosing a HOB filter over wet/dry or other recommended setups is the cost. The filtration is the life blood of your tank. You can only house what your filtration will allow you. And actually, one reason nobody has yet stated for a wet/dry or fuge, is flow rate. If you go with the HOB, you better think about adding a few powerheads for circulation, because that is one thing reefs require. You really need to have about a 10 time per hour turn over rate in your tank and HOB filters cannot achieve this unless you go with a nano. Even then powerheads are really necessary. Think of the flowrate of the ocean and take it for what it's worth. Either way you go, you need to spend some money. We're not telling you this because we profit from it, it's just a fact you need to realize. The more you can spend, the better stuff you can have. That's reality. Maintaining and ecosytem (which is basically what a reef is) requires a commitment which many of us are not sure you are willing to give. If so, I am sorry for bashing you. RESEARCH THIS BOARD AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND YOU WILL SEE THAT THIS IS THE TRUTH.

 

[zanemoseley]

100lb of LR in a 55 is a bit too much especially if you're low on $$$, one option is getting half LR and half base rock which in time will be come live. If you go to ---- and check out the seller HIROCKS has has nice hawiian base rock for very cheap, I have 50-60lb of it in my tank.

 

[mujtba]

rossim, thanks for that summary.
so the bacteria eat up all the wastes and particles?? and no filter is needed if you have enough LR.
then wont the water get dirty? do you just do a 20% water change biweekly or something? or does the water not get dirty if you have enough LR?
whats DSB and SSB?
wont the powerheads blow the sand all over the place?
the only lighting i have is what came with the tank. I guess your generic fluroscent tube lights.

 

[cbshark]

Much more than you ever thought of , huh? All of these answers and 10 times as many that you haven't even thought of await you here.

 

[mujtba]

yes shark, thats why i posted here to begin with. nothing tops asking people who already did it.
i guess 50lbs of base rock on the bottom and 50lbs of live rock on the top is good??
how long does it take for the base to get live? will it happen in that cycle?
shark isnt LR filter enough? i would rather invest in LR than a wet/dry. I can return my filter for some power heards. wont that be sufficient?

 

[rossim]

Originally posted by zanemoseley
100lb of LR in a 55 is a bit too much especially if you're low on $$$, one option is getting half LR and half base rock which in time will be come live. If you go to ---- and check out the seller HIROCKS has has nice hawiian base rock for very cheap, I have 50-60lb of it in my tank.
Forgot to mention that. Like I said before, there are ways to ge this done a lot cheaper. But you do need everything to be sucessful.

 

[zanemoseley]

If you've done freshwater for 9 years you should be aware of the nitrogen cycle. The bacteria in LR and biowheels and such turn organic wastes into ammonia then nitrites then nitrates then nitrogen which is released into the air. The reason for a skimmer is it removes the organics before they can break down. If you don't remove the organics and don't have enough biological filtration to "eat" up ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates quickly enough than they will poison your fish and they will die. Most people see a build up of nitrates and sometimes nitrites.

 

[rossim]

Baserock on the bottm and LR on top sounds like a plan to me. Not sure how long it will take for the baserock to become "live" but it will happen over time.
Once the tank is cycled, you can add a clean-up crew. SWF sells packages that contain everything you'll need. Basically a bunch of hermit crabs, snails, a starfish or two, a shrimp, and maybe some crabs. Do a search for clean-up crews and you'll find lots of information on what each one does. They'll help break down the waste and particles and keep the tank clean (alegae and diatoms). With the LR and water flow, you do not need a filter. The LR is your filter.
In this setup, the water should not get dirty. You will still need to do water changes every other week or so to help keep the Nitrates (search on the ammonia cycle) down and re-introduce some trace elements that are beneficial to the tank (these are the "good" elements that a skimmer can remove. It doesn't remove enough to do any harm to the tank and you can replenish them with water changes). The skimmer helps a lot with the filtration by removing any other waste particles that are left in the water.
DSB - Deep sand bed - Atleast 4 inches of sand
SSB - Shallow sand bed - about an inch of sand
Do a search to read about the benefits/downfalls of each. The powerheads do not blow the sand all over. They are positioned near the top of the water.
You will need to upgrade your lighting if you want a reef tank. No corals will live more than a few months with the lights you have if they are standard flouresant lights that came with the tank. I'd post a seperate thread asking about the types of lights you should get for a 55 gallon. Make sure you post the types of corals you want to keep as they have different lighting requirements. You don't need them for the cycle, but will need them by the time you add your first coral. This is, unless you get lucky and have some coral hitch-hike on your LR. Then you may need them sooner.

 

[tony detroit]

In my experience-
1. read a lot
2. do what people tell you
3. be ready to buy the absolute best equipment, you'll pay for it with dead livestock and then you'll still have to buy good filtration anyhow, it really does make a big difference, I've been down the "save some money" road, and it sucks. I wouldn't go now unless I can go right from the start. Your tank will look like crap and you'll be buying new livestock all the time. FYI I would guess I'm over $5000 on my 175gal.

 

[cbshark]

I would go with the 50/50 rock idea. The bacteria will migrate to the base over time. The best reason for doing this is cost. You can't see what's on the bottom of the tank, so why spend $10 a pound for what you won't see. I don't know if you've priced LR but it can range from $5-$25 per pound depending on what kind you get. But really, I would suggest that if you really want to do a reef, research nanos, keep your big tank fish only until you are comfortable and set up a 10 gallon reef to start. It may be a bit tougher to set-up and keep thriving, but once you do get it going well, the knowledge that you will have gained will prepare you for anything you will encounter on a larger scale. Not only this, but it is much cheaper to light your tank as well, which is where you will spend the bulk of your setup money. You can take a 10 gallon tank use the standard hood and retrofit a 32 watt power compact fixture in it, cover tank with a glass canopy, filtration with a biowheel 125 (great for nano, not a large reef), add a 80 GPH powerhead and there is your setup. 20 times per hour turnover rate which is ideal for a reef, over 3 watts per gallon of lighting which many would say is barely adequate in a large reef (light intensity is the key in this situation though) and you are ready to keep anyhting you want, all for about $200 set up. Let it cycle with a couple of cheap damsels (very hardy) and you'll be ready for corals before you know it. You can add some LR at start up if you like, but it's not necessary. I would talk to your LFS and buy livesand (sand from an established reef tank) and some small LR pieces and go from there. You don't want to buy to much rock to start off cause you will be adding rock in with your corals. Before you know it, your tank will be full of rock with no room for corals. Buy a good test kit, follow the directions, buy some b-ionic calcium buffer system ($15 will last you forever in a 10 gallon), follow the directions, change water on a regular basis (10-20% weekly), do not overstock with fish, add a clean up crew (crabs, snails, etc.) and you are on your way to an awesome tank. Believe me, if you are setting this tank up for your mom to enjoy, you can't go wrong with a nano. You can pack a nano full with corals and such at a fraction of the cost of a large tank. Do a search of my username and you will see many progress photos from when I started my nano.

 

[rossim]

Originally posted by Magic_Carp
well i hope it goes good, you can also buy a 10 gallon tank at walmart with filter, heater, cover, lights(need to upgrade) thermomater, and tap water cleaner for only $30 great deal...
I would especially NOT use tap water on a nano tank. There are less organisms to deal with the impurities that will be introduced to the tank with tap water in a nano tank. In any tank, these can lead to algae blooms and unstable conditions, but it will reak havoc in a nano. You can get RO/DI saltwater from some LFSs. Its usually really cheap to. Top the water off with RO/DI water.

 

[mujtba]

ok to start out do i need 60lbs of base rock, and 50lbs of live rock? or is it better to wait for the cycle to complete to get the any rocks?
ill get a skimmer if it can only help// but i was told u dont need one asap. i can wait month or so for it.
shark, i would like to start with a nano, but i already have a 55G. I dont have room to put another tank somewhere and then maintain 2 tanks. its easier to just maintain 1 tank. i will get a book today.
im sure if i follow steps, ill get it right.
lighting too i guess i can buy once i start with corals.
does LR work rigth away or will bacteria die if the cycle isnt complete?

 

[rossim]

Originally posted by Magic_Carp
if hes on a budget he wont be able to get and RO/DI unit, but if you search on ---- under 2004a or 200a4 on of those two, they ahve a RO/DI unit for cheap.
You can buy RO/DI water from some LFS for well under a dollar per gallon.

 

[rossim]

Originally posted by mujtba
ok to start out do i need 60lbs of base rock, and 50lbs of live rock? or is it better to wait for the cycle to complete to get the any rocks?
ill get a skimmer if it can only help// but i was told u dont need one asap. i can wait month or so for it.
shark, i would like to start with a nano, but i already have a 55G. I dont have room to put another tank somewhere and then maintain 2 tanks. its easier to just maintain 1 tank. i will get a book today.
im sure if i follow steps, ill get it right.
lighting too i guess i can buy once i start with corals.
does LR work rigth away or will bacteria die if the cycle isnt complete?
I'd put the rock in ASAP. If you let the tank cycle and then add rock, you run the chance of having a mini-cycle kick off which can kill stuff int he tank and make the total cycle period even longer.