Responsible aquarist vs responsible vendor

[nicetry]

I'm interested in your thoughts regarding a vendors responsibility in this hobby. While it certainly falls back on the hobbyist to research what they purchase, where does the vendor's responsibility come in to play. Should a vendor sell butterfly fish that are obligate coralivores, yet say they eat clams and are only moderately difficult to care for? Should a vebndor sell cleaner wrasses that by in large have a dismal survival rate, but say they will eat most fish foods? I think if vendors would put forth an effort to not sell certain species and explain why, the demand for said species might dwindle, saving a lot of unecessary loss. Any time a difficult species is offered for sale, someone will try it, particularly if it is misrepresented by the seller (either intentionally or otherwise). I'm thinking the responsibility has to be shared, and a responsible vendor would take an opportunity to avoid a species with a poor survival rate or ones that simply can't be kept, even with expert care.

 

[ophiura]

I agree wholeheartedly

I would personally prefer and support any store that does this. My inclination there was to say any store that is "honest' but in fairness many simply do not purposely mislead - they are just not completely informed. But there is often a higher price to pay, and IME any store charging a bit more is on the outs with many hobbyists who are buying livestock like they comparison shop toilet paper.

 

[guille]

The first questions I ask are tank size, fish only? Whats in it atm? Any issues? I made a sheet for recording water results that I give to the customer. It has the readings for 3 tests. Its just easier if they bring it back to watch for trends. How long has it been up and running, lights, flow, Then go from there. I feel I should give the most informed answer that I can. I have access to over 30 years of saltwater advice and several very good books. I have no shame what so ever in saying I don't know. I may not know but I can find out.

 

[i love fish]

I think vendors should put up information regarding each specie they r selling, stating what they eat, what not to 'mix' it with, ideal temp, SG, what size tank is appropriate, etc. Basically as much info as they can, that way they can not b held responsible if some1 bought, lets say, a cleaner wrasse and put it in a completely empty tank with no other fish to 'clean'. Or if some1 put a triggerfish with his really neat shrimps.
It is up to both the vendor and the hobbyist to research, but sometimes some ppls time/resources r limited therefore I believe the vendor should atleast provide some 'accurate' information 2 the buyer.
The more successful the customer is with his hobby, the more likely he/she will stick with it, and the more he/she will return to the place of purchase 4 more sucsess.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2606636
I But there is often a higher price to pay, and IME any store charging a bit more is on the outs with many hobbyists who are buying livestock like they comparison shop toilet paper.
And therein lies the problem, how do you balance staying in business and ethically not selling certain fish?

 

[beth]

I think the bulk of buyers are probably newer hobbyists that are looking for good quality, but with a bargain. Mostly, these hobbyists don't have a clue or care about environmental issues related to the hobby. More experienced hobbyists start to think about quality of care for the animals, and the effects of hobby on the reefs. There are stores that you see opening up with this philosophy in mind, including a new store that was opened by the same owner as SWF.
I'd personally love to see the success of such stores, and with that success, you'd expect other stores to fall in line.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2609657
I think the bulk of buyers are probably newer hobbyists that are looking for good quality, but with a bargain. Mostly, these hobbyists don't have a clue or care about environmental issues related to the hobby. More experienced hobbyists start to think about quality of care for the animals, and the effects of hobby on the reefs. There are stores that you see opening up with this philosophy in mind, including a new store that was opened by the same owner as SWF.
I'd personally love to see the success of such stores, and with that success, you'd expect other stores to fall in line.
I hope you are right. But I look at other retail companies, the trend is less service more inventory turnover.

 

[beth]

I think that is so with many of the LFS today. There are some that are awesome, but many are really sub-standard in my view. Its supply and demand of the consumer that drives the market.
In other words, its up to us.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by nicetry
http:///forum/post/2605786
I'm interested in your thoughts regarding a vendors responsibility in this hobby. While it certainly falls back on the hobbyist to research what they purchase, where does the vendor's responsibility come in to play. Should a vendor sell butterfly fish that are obligate coralivores, yet say they eat clams and are only moderately difficult to care for? Should a vebndor sell cleaner wrasses that by in large have a dismal survival rate, but say they will eat most fish foods? I think if vendors would put forth an effort to not sell certain species and explain why, the demand for said species might dwindle, saving a lot of unecessary loss. Any time a difficult species is offered for sale, someone will try it, particularly if it is misrepresented by the seller (either intentionally or otherwise). I'm thinking the responsibility has to be shared, and a responsible vendor would take an opportunity to avoid a species with a poor survival rate or ones that simply can't be kept, even with expert care.
I absolutly agree, in the short time I have been in this hobby I have one trusted LFS, thats it only one out of the 7 in my area. The reason why I trust this LFS is because they are not afraid to say, "I dont know". One of the biggest problems I have seen so far in this hobby is every LFS owner claims to know the answer to every question they are asked. Which is better? Getting an inaccurate answer to a question you had, only to find out the truth later when you either read it somewhere, or you had a problem with what you bought. Or the LFS telling you that they really dont know, and they they would find out. I have a lot of respect in the LFS that I trust for that one reason. And the guy I talk to 99% of the time is a biologist, when he can still look at me and say I dont know, I think that speaks volumes for the integrity of the person and the store. This LFS wont sell a yellow tang for a 30gal tank, they wont sell fish they dont have knowledge of. They will not sell any fish to just anyone with out knowing about their set up. I agree this is a rare find but I applaude their efforts to take the responsibility of a vendor to the next level.
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2609562
And therein lies the problem, how do you balance staying in business and ethically not selling certain fish?
And they are very successful... prob the nicest FS in my area, lots of live stock, tanks are always spotless, and they even quarantine their fish for a week before selling to the public. Once someone walks into a place like that how can they say "I will never go back there again"? IMO this is what brings people back to them again and again.

 

[ophiura]

PerfectDark - how are their prices? I've seen some of these things done in a local LFS but people complain to no end about the higher prices.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2611005
PerfectDark - how are their prices? I've seen some of these things done in a local LFS but people complain to no end about the higher prices.
Yep they are more pricy no doubt there, and although in the begining when I started in this hobby I frowned upon this, but now I dont mind at all. I know for a fact out of all the LFS locally, I am buying the healthiest fish available. Would you pay $10 more for a Ocellaris if they guaranteed it for 3 days after purchase? (of course they request a sample of your water). Keeping the staff on hand that they have its easy to see why they charge more for their live stock. But with those prices your getting knowledge found no where else locally. That IMO is worth a bit more, to a serious hobbiest. They employ 2 biologists, and 3 other employees with degree's in Geology and Geophysics, Animal and Veterinary Science and a dregree in Chemical Oceanography. They just hired a former employee from Mystic Aquarium, she headed up their parsite and disease department and has been there for almost 20yrs. Like I said this place is A typical from the norm, but IMO well worth the extra $$ for what they offer.

 

[ophiura]

LOL, the store I used to work at had a 7 day guarantee on fish (again, water test and obviously beaten fish were discounted). But people complain to no end on the prices. Certainly don't have the same expertice on staff though.

 

[spiderwoman]

If I have a choice of a few LFS's, all with good selection of fish...
1) cheap prices and no quarante on fish
2) higher prices and they quarante their fish
3) medium prices and live arrival garantee
My choice is 2. I'm willing to pay more for fish that have been quaranteed.
In any case, the ultimate responsibility for purchases is on us. If we don't do the research and buy a fish that requires a special environment to succeed in, then it's our own fault. It's easy to blame someone else for our own mistakes and an LFS is there to make a profit.
Just my $0.02 worth

 

[nicetry]

What about online vendors? Should they be held to a higher standard than a lfs?

 

[spiderwoman]

I personally want to see the fish eat first and see the conditions it's kept in before I buy. I know I could buy fish cheaper online, but I don't really care if they have 14 or 15 day life guarantee, I don't know where they truly come from and how stressed they are by the time they come to my door. There are times when I do order online, inverts especially when I know my LFS would not have the specific kind that I'm looking for or can't/won't order them.
I think online vendors should be held to the same standard as LFS, I dunno.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2611105
LOL, the store I used to work at had a 7 day guarantee on fish (again, water test and obviously beaten fish were discounted). But people complain to no end on the prices. Certainly don't have the same expertice on staff though.
Were was this? Or do they not anymore.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by PerfectDark
http:///forum/post/2610952
I absolutly agree, in the short time I have been in this hobby I have one trusted LFS, thats it only one out of the 7 in my area. The reason why I trust this LFS is because they are not afraid to say, "I dont know". One of the biggest problems I have seen so far in this hobby is every LFS owner claims to know the answer to every question they are asked. Which is better? Getting an inaccurate answer to a question you had, only to find out the truth later when you either read it somewhere, or you had a problem with what you bought. Or the LFS telling you that they really dont know, and they they would find out. I have a lot of respect in the LFS that I trust for that one reason. And the guy I talk to 99% of the time is a biologist, when he can still look at me and say I dont know, I think that speaks volumes for the integrity of the person and the store. This LFS wont sell a yellow tang for a 30gal tank, they wont sell fish they dont have knowledge of. They will not sell any fish to just anyone with out knowing about their set up. I agree this is a rare find but I applaude their efforts to take the responsibility of a vendor to the next level.
And they are very successful... prob the nicest FS in my area, lots of live stock, tanks are always spotless, and they even quarantine their fish for a week before selling to the public. Once someone walks into a place like that how can they say "I will never go back there again"? IMO this is what brings people back to them again and again.
Don't get me wrong, I made alot of money as a salesman because I would say I don't know, but I'll find out for you. But I wasn't rewarded company wise because they were ticked I wasn't pushing the garbage they wanted to sell. Maybe I'm jaded, I don't really like any of the lfs that I've visited in houston. What really gets me is the lfs with the worst fish charge the most. There is one lfs that has wonderful fish, but he would sell you a tang for your betta bowl if he had the chance.
Hopefully there are enough hobbiests that see this as buying a nice dog or something where price isn't as important as quality. I just don't see any stores locally that operate that way.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2614094
Don't get me wrong, I made alot of money as a salesman because I would say I don't know, but I'll find out for you. But I wasn't rewarded company wise because they were ticked I wasn't pushing the garbage they wanted to sell. Maybe I'm jaded, I don't really like any of the lfs that I've visited in houston. What really gets me is the lfs with the worst fish charge the most. There is one lfs that has wonderful fish, but he would sell you a tang for your betta bowl if he had the chance.
Hopefully there are enough hobbiests that see this as buying a nice dog or something where price isn't as important as quality. I just don't see any stores locally that operate that way.
I agree, and I would classify this fish store as the anomaly. And I can certainly see how someone who is not an owner not lasting a very long time working at a LFS when their primary goal is the health and welfare of the fish. Unfortunatly I wish there were more owners that placed the welfare of the fish before the sale, but they dont. I use my better judgment and knowledge to do my part, and educate anyone who happens to want my opinion.

 

[fuerte91]

I know this thread may be a bit old, but my LFS has a list of animals that do not live in captivity

 

[florida joe]

Come on people it’s a business does anyone hear the sound of a cash register. At the end of the day its how much money is made not how nice a guy you are. If people were not looking for fish that are imposable to keep the LFS would not stock them. We the customer drive the market. It is our responsibility to research not the store owners responsibility to educate.When I go into my LFS I am looking to make a perches not get an education. It is my responsibility to understand the needs of the livestock I buy. To walk into a LFS and buy something on impulse without knowing anything about it. is irresponsible