Rush Limbaugh, the original American Idiot.

darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
For one thing, we never got rid of the Bush Tax Cuts.  The Top 10% have benefitted tremendously because of them.  With the explosion of new technologies, specifically Internet advances like "working in The Cloud", they have a myriad of options to invest their money with fewer risks and larger returns.  The lower and middle class are living paycheck-to-paycheck simply because of inflation of goods during a 6-year Recession.  Then you have the opportunistic idiots that have become instant millionaires simply because they do something stupid on a TV reality show, or their claim to fame is nothing more than name recognition (their Daddy was a lawyer for The Trial Of The Century).  What's sad is the American public allowed them to get there in the first place.
Why does the extension of the Bush tax cuts that benefited everyone, including the top 10%, and others becoming reality TV millionaires have to do with widening caps?  If a millionaire makes more money, that doesn't mean that extra money is coming from my bank acct.  It does mean, however, that less money is being handed over to a government that is prone to squander it away.  Also, presumably a millionaire making a lot of money will be investing it in business some way---meaning more jobs perhaps?  What benefit is there exactly in increasing income for the government?   Government certainly doesn't pay off its colossal debt with the extra cash. 
To further expand on what Beth commented. The Gap is widening at double the rate of previous years. The Bush Tax cuts were in place for 8 years prior to this sudden upsurge in the income Gap. So blaming the tax cuts that had been in place for 7 years before is just ridiculous. How does a rich person paying more taxes increase the income of a middle class American?
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535030
How does a rich person paying more taxes increase the income of a middle class American?
This truly seems to be a common belief among your average democrat, and I would love to know the reasoning.

To me, its seems like contempt for rich people, and therefore irrationally blaming them for our economic woos. However, if there is a rational explaination, I would be very open to hearing it.
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535030
To further expand on what Beth commented. The Gap is widening at double the rate of previous years. The Bush Tax cuts were in place for 8 years prior to this sudden upsurge in the income Gap. So blaming the tax cuts that had been in place for 7 years before is just ridiculous. How does a rich person paying more taxes increase the income of a middle class American?
The tax cuts benefit the rich more than they do the lower and middle class. They provide more "loopholes" and other tax shelters that the "common person" simply doesn't have available to them. Look at Romney. He's worth what, $250 million? Yet he only claims around $100K in earned income because the majority of his assets are stashed in clever tax shelters like the Caymans. The average person doesn't have that luxury. The Top 10% are able to keep more cash, invest it to make even more money. I would know this because I'm in the Top 10%.

It's a complete fallacy that someone with more wealth that gets to keep more of their money because of tax cuts will take that extra funds and re-inject them back into their various businesses. If that were the case, why has the unemployment rate been so stagnant for the last 10 years? If you're investing in your business, you'd need more employees to accomodate any expansions you have. No, instead of creating new jobs, they're buying multiple million-dollar homes, private jets, and luxury vacations. Then they continue paying their "worker bee's" a mere pittance that they can barely survive on. The rich get richer, and the poor stay poor.
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535031
This truly seems to be a common belief among your average democrat, and I would love to know the reasoning.

To me, its seems like contempt for rich people, and therefore irrationally blaming them for our economic woos. However, if there is a rational explaination, I would be very open to hearing it.
Higher taxes equates to reducing the federal debt, which in turn pushes us out of a Recession, which in turn reduces prices on goods and services, which in turn infuses more money into the economy because the people at the lower end have more expendible cash since it costs them less to purchase goods and services they need.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535031
This truly seems to be a common belief among your average democrat, and I would love to know the reasoning.

To me, its seems like contempt for rich people, and therefore irrationally blaming them for our economic woos. However, if there is a rational explaination, I would be very open to hearing it.
Higher taxes equates to reducing the federal debt, which in turn pushes us out of a Recession, which in turn reduces prices on goods and services, which in turn infuses more money into the economy because the people at the lower end have more expendible cash since it costs them less to purchase goods and services they need.
The problem I see with this thinking is that 10% is supposed to bail out the federal government's debt? The solution to debt is for the government, like all of us, to live within their budget. Our government has failed miserably with that one and its not the 10%'s fault.

I'm all for flat rate tax BTW.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Higher taxes equates to reducing the federal debt, which in turn pushes us out of a Recession, which in turn reduces prices on goods and services, which in turn infuses more money into the economy because the people at the lower end have more expendible cash since it costs them less to purchase goods and services they need.
How does government debt affect the recession?
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535036
The problem I see with this thinking is that 10% is supposed to bail out the federal government's debt? The solution to debt is for the government, like all of us, to live within their budget. Our government has failed miserably with that one and its not the 10%'s fault.

I'm all for flat rate tax BTW.
How is the lower and middle class supposed to do it? Cut the Bush Tax Cuts on them, and you get an few hundred dollars from those making $50K and less. Cut them for the Top 10%, and you get thousands and hundreds of thousands. Go back to the last Presidential election. Why is it that a multi-millionaire like Romney should have the same Effective Tax Rate of some guy that makes only $50K? Yes, you could say why should he have to pay more taxes just because he has more wealth, but the reason he's able to maintain that wealth and that same percentage of EFT is because he's able to "hide" his assets and earnings in inventive tax shelters that on paper are perfectly legal that in reality aren't available to those with low and middle incomes. Sure, some guy making $40K could move some of his money into some tax shelter in the Caymans, but then he wouldn't have enough money to pay his bills and buy basic necessities. Plus, he'd only save maybe a thousand or so on his taxes, while billionaires are saving hundreds of thousands and millions for doing the same.

I'm for a Flat Tax as well. Unfortunately, the lower and middle classes would suffer most from it. Set the tax rate to 15%, and for someone making that $30K, that might mean they can't pay rent or buy groceries. For the Billionaire, that means they can't buy that new Bentley, use the G6 for their next vacation in Europe, or have a private party with P Diddy...
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member

So the government determines the economy and it's state exclusively? Where in the economy are the interest payments being sucked out?
The government has made commitments in the range of trillions to help support a struggling financial system. It's a response not a determination. So now we all pay one way or another for mistakes made by those wielding vast economic power. If I default on my mortgage it's shame on me, but let a few banks make a boo boo it's shame on us all. But hey, as long as they're still getting their bonuses instead of sitting behind bars then I guess it's all good in the hood.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
The tax cuts benefit the rich more than they do the lower and middle class.  They provide more "loopholes" and other tax shelters that the "common person" simply doesn't have available to them.  Look at Romney.  He's worth what, $250 million?  Yet he only claims around $100K in earned income because the majority of his assets are stashed in clever tax shelters like the Caymans.  The average person doesn't have that luxury.  The Top 10% are able to keep more cash, invest it to make even more money.  I would know this because I'm in the Top 10%.
It's a complete fallacy that someone with more wealth that gets to keep more of their money because of tax cuts will take that extra funds and re-inject them back into their various businesses.  If that were the case, why has the unemployment rate been so stagnant for the last 10 years?  If you're investing in your business, you'd need more employees to accomodate any expansions you have.  No, instead of creating new jobs, they're buying multiple million-dollar homes, private jets, and luxury vacations.  Then they continue paying their "worker bee's" a mere pittance that they can barely survive on.  The rich get richer, and the poor stay poor.
Agree with much of this to a degree. Personally I've seen investors do this very thing to where the majority of their wealth is stashed in tax shelters so on paper they appear to bring in only a fraction of that which actually gets taxed. Fortunate for them who can still afford to fly first class. I liken it to using cheat codes in video games to get to the end of the game faster. You didn't really earn it all on the level. I wouldn't have any problem asking them for more money...better yet, how about they just pay their fair share to begin with?
But we aren't going to get where we`d like to be on taxes alone. Government debt aside look at what our trade agreements with China are doing to us. China is pretty much robbing us from the inside out (so to speak). Here we have a nation where the standards of living are so low that they can create products for dirt cheap that Americans devour. In turn our business can't compete because the average American wishes and strives to live in better standards. We can't make products that cheap and still pay workers a decent enough wage to continue living up to those standards. So profits and wages drop, businesses close or move out of the country, people get layed off and it all just compounds.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Everthing everyone has commented on does one thing. Takes money from rich people...However since rich people invest more and invest return is based on percentages they will continue to gain wealth usually. How does anything anyone in this discussion has proposed actually increase the income of the middle and poor class?
Taking money away from Bill Gates, does not put more money in my pocket. Hell half my clients are upper class people. If they pay more in taxes how does this increase my monetary situation?
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

The government has made commitments in the range of trillions to help support a struggling financial system. It's a response not a determination. So now we all pay one way or another for mistakes made by those wielding vast economic power. If I default on my mortgage it's shame on me, but let a few banks make a boo boo it's shame on us all. But hey, as long as they're still getting their bonuses instead of sitting behind bars then I guess it's all good in the hood.
This doesn't explain how higher taxes on the rich will increase the incomes of the lower and middle class..........This addresses a small fraction of the deficit and debt...which plays a very small part on our economy..unless the stock market is our entire economy...
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
If all of the money that every citizen actually made was reported and taxed then I think you'd see a slightly less burden on the 99% in terms of taxes which could see a trickle down effect back into the hands of those who are struggling the most. Personally, I agree a flat tax rate as well. The ideals of taking more money from rich folks probably comes from the idea that many aren't all playing by the rules. And the shear amount of money that avoids getting taxed falls largely in the hands of the most wealthy who can afford and are smart enough to exploit the loop holes.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535058
If all of the money that every citizen actually made was reported and taxed then I think you'd see a slightly less burden on the 99% in terms of taxes which could see a trickle down effect back into the hands of those who are struggling the most. Personally, I agree a flat tax rate as well. The ideals of taking more money from rich folks probably comes from the idea that many aren't all playing by the rules. And the shear amount of money that avoids getting taxed falls largely in the hands of the most wealthy who can afford and are smart enough to exploit the loop holes.
See that is where I disagree. Not that rich should not pay what they owe rather then hiding their actual income, but that government (receiving more money from the rich) will create less of burden on the 99%. Are you saying that if the rich paid their actual percentage, then everyone else would have less of a tax burden (in that the gov would tax 99% less)?
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
See that is where I disagree.  Not that rich should not pay what they owe rather then hiding their actual income, but that government (receiving more money from the rich) will create less of burden on the 99%.  Are you saying that if the rich paid their actual percentage, then everyone else would have less of a tax burden (in that the gov would tax 99% less)?   
Yes and no. I don't think that the blame of non reported inome falls on the rich alone I just think that they hold the lions share of non reported income that hurts the little guy who's actually trying to do the right thing more than it hurts the wealthy who can still feed their families. When it comes to the poor working under the table i can at least sympathize a little more because it becomes more of a matter of survival than greed. IMO if we all payed a flat tax and didn't cheat then everyone would be a little better off. If we could actually make that happen then we could stop all of this mumbo jumbo about Bill Gates needing to pay a higher percentage tax rate than I do which is rediculous.
Bill Gates, BTW now that he's largely retired is using his wealth to make enormous contributions to charity. Infact I caught an interview with him and he claims that once he and his wife pass on that his fortune is in large part all going to charity. He plans to spread it around. Not hoard it for his family only. Props to him for that.
 
beaslbob

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535045
So the government determines the economy and it's state exclusively? Where in the economy are the interest payments being sucked out?

So the government determines the economy and it's state exclusively
Nope. not exclusiverly. But they do have that effect.
Where in the economy are the interest payments being sucked out
From our taxes. the entire economy. Without the interest payments there would be more money for people to buy and build things.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Quote:Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/396747/rush-limbaugh-the-original-american-idiot/20#post_3535045
So the government determines the economy and it's state exclusively? Where in the economy are the interest payments being sucked out?

So the government determines the economy and it's state exclusively
Nope. not exclusiverly. But they do have that effect.
Where in the economy are the interest payments being sucked out
From our taxes. the entire economy. Without the interest payments there would be more money for people to buy and build things.
The people? Explain how i would acquire more money to buy things.
Flat tax wont work money will still be hidden. This country could tax two things and things would be solved. Capital gains and create a federal sales tax. Every purchase would be taxed.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Yes and no. I don't think that the blame of non reported inome falls on the rich alone I just think that they hold the lions share of non reported income that hurts the little guy who's actually trying to do the right thing more than it hurts the wealthy who can still feed their families. When it comes to the poor working under the table i can at least sympathize a little more because it becomes more of a matter of survival than greed. IMO if we all payed a flat tax and didn't cheat then everyone would be a little better off. If we could actually make that happen then we could stop all of this mumbo jumbo about Bill Gates needing to pay a higher percentage tax rate than I do which is rediculous.
Bill Gates, BTW now that he's largely retired is using his wealth to make enormous contributions to charity. Infact I caught an interview with him and he claims that once he and his wife pass on that his fortune is in large part all going to charity. He plans to spread it around. Not hoard it for his family only. Props to him for that.Have you ever owned a business? Business owners are taxed beyond belief as it is.
 
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