Sebae or BTA?????

[o2ngk]

Originally Posted by WangoTango
There is no formula. Spectrum is only the color of the bulb which has nothing to do with wattage or how much light is produced. You're right, penetration is not measured in watts, it's measured as PAR, but a 400w halide will give you more PAR than a comparable 250w, which is why there are guidelines to follow if you're using them for your tank; 175 up to 20" 250w up to 24" and 400w over that.
Like I said before, WPG is obsolete. You said that it does not matter what type of lighting you use if you have at least 4wpg. This is not true. A four bulb (individually reflected) T5 setup will produce more PAR than a dual 150w halide setup. On a 55 the T5 would give you about 3.9wpg, the halides would give you about 5, but the PAR is higher with the T5, and you're getting it with fewer watts. You can put all the PC bulbs you can fit and you still wouldn't get the same results.
-Justin
First of all, I did not mean to say "it does not matter what type of lightning" as seems ignoring what hard or soft corals, etc may need, I said you can choose PC,T5, T6 or MH with a simple rule of 4WPG .. I also noted to choose the correct type of light depending on the future plan for corals, inverts, etc. For example, if you are planning to have hard corals, don't event think about PC does not matter what the wattage is or any other measurement is just plain wrong type of light.
Second, let's study what PAR really is "the expression Photosynthetically Active Radiation, often abbreviated PAR, designates the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers that is useful to terrestrial plants in the process of photosynthesis." .. so how this is going to make sense explaining to any hobbyist .. more importantly how do you measure PAR? Remember I mentioned light spectrum?
You are right as far as your example of T5 and MH, and the simple way I will put it is if you buy 400W PC vs 400W T5 will that produce the same result? The answer is no, because PC does not have the spectrum light or PAR as you said and can be generated by T5 or another way to look at it is some corals or inverts are looking for specific spectrum that may not be availale on PC but it is on T5.
Look there is a science to this thing, test done and may be "formula" somewhere .. but I am not going to split my brain for all of that .. if you go to your LFS or lightning store and ask them about PAR measurement, most likely they look at you like "what" .. but go there with WPG, they will smile and help you.
So is WPG obsolete or PAR is the way? It depends on who you talk to and how serious are you into this hobby. I may not be using the correct scientific term, but I hope you get the idea.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by o2ngk
First of all, I did not mean to say "it does not matter what type of lightning" as seems ignoring what hard or soft corals, etc may need, I said you can choose PC,T5, T6 or MH with a simple rule of 4WPG .. I also noted to choose the correct type of light depending on the future plan for corals, inverts, etc. For example, if you are planning to have hard corals, don't event think about PC does not matter what the wattage is or any other measurement is just plain wrong type of light.
Second, let's study what PAR really is "the expression Photosynthetically Active Radiation, often abbreviated PAR, designates the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers that is useful to terrestrial plants in the process of photosynthesis." .. so how this is going to make sense explaining to a beginner hobbyist .. more importantly how do you measure PAR? Remember I mentioned light spectrum?
You are right as far as your example of T5 and MH, and the simple way I will put it is if you buy 400W PC vs 400W T5 will that produce the same result? The answer is no, because PC does not have the spectrum light and can be generated by T5 or another way to look at it is some corals or inverts are looking for specific spectrum that may not be availale on PC but it is on T5.
Look there is a science to this thing, test done and may be "formula" somewhere .. but I am not going to split my brain for all of that .. if you go to your LFS or lightning store and ask them about PAR measurement, most likely they look at you like "what" .. but go there with WPG, they will smile and help you.
So is WPG obsolete or PAR is the way? It depends on who you talk to and how serious are you into this hobby.
PAR is measured with a meter and not only is it spectum of light your measuring but you can measure it at depths which is what we are looking for. That PAR at certain depths, tells you what can sustain life depending on their light requrements. Not only is it essential for terrestrial plants, but anything that uses photosynthesis to obtain life is dependant on that range in nanometers. A PAR Meter is fairly expensive but can be found, a more common measurement of light intensity that can be found on certain bulbs and by researching the internet. That is lumens and is often indicated by lumens per watt which is also telling you the intensity of the bulb in question.
PC's do have the spectrum of light available for photosynthesis or else they couldnt be sold as such. What they lack is the intensity to reach the inhabitants at certain depths. This is where more often than not PC lighting is insufficient, you CAN keep a BTA in a tank with PC lighting. If some guidlines are followed, first the tank is shallow no more than 12" deep, and if its not that you can guarantee that the animal will reside no more than 10 inches below the surface of the water at all times. The later of the 2 is somthing that cannot be done. Its a general rule for that fact alone that PC lighting is not suffiecient for an anemone. All bulbs, T5, PC and MH Have the spectrum available needed to sustain Photosynthesis.
Being serious into the hobby is relative, IMO I dont thing its being too serious to make sure the requirements of my inhabitants is sufficient. Having an anemone die in your tank depending on tank and animal size can have devistating results and even cause a crash.
And lastly IMO if you go into any LFS and ask about lighting, they should know what PAR is, but not know specifics. They should definatly know what Lumens are, and if they are going to recomend a light based on WPG and dont ask the depth of your tank I would turn around and leave the store.. JMO

 

[lexluethar]

Originally Posted by o2ngk
First of all, I did not mean to say "it does not matter what type of lightning" as seems ignoring what hard or soft corals, etc may need, I said you can choose PC,T5, T6 or MH with a simple rule of 4WPG .. I also noted to choose the correct type of light depending on the future plan for corals, inverts, etc. For example, if you are planning to have hard corals, don't event think about PC does not matter what the wattage is or any other measurement is just plain wrong type of light.
Second, let's study what PAR really is "the expression Photosynthetically Active Radiation, often abbreviated PAR, designates the spectral range of solar light from 400 to 700 nanometers that is useful to terrestrial plants in the process of photosynthesis." .. so how this is going to make sense explaining to any hobbyist .. more importantly how do you measure PAR? Remember I mentioned light spectrum?
You are right as far as your example of T5 and MH, and the simple way I will put it is if you buy 400W PC vs 400W T5 will that produce the same result? The answer is no, because PC does not have the spectrum light or PAR as you said and can be generated by T5 or another way to look at it is some corals or inverts are looking for specific spectrum that may not be availale on PC but it is on T5.
Look there is a science to this thing, test done and may be "formula" somewhere .. but I am not going to split my brain for all of that .. if you go to your LFS or lightning store and ask them about PAR measurement, most likely they look at you like "what" .. but go there with WPG, they will smile and help you.
So is WPG obsolete or PAR is the way? It depends on who you talk to and how serious are you into this hobby. I may not be using the correct scientific term, but I hope you get the idea.
And i would still like to see someone trying to argue the fact that there is 1500 watts of PC light out there - if so the arguement of watts per gallon IS absolete. But considering the more watts you put into a fixture the more intense the light tends to be lets not pick hairs. Once I see a current light fixture that is sucking up 1000 watts and is PC, then I will say "hey you know what, watts is useless" - but as o2 said it is a good rule of thumb. PC isn't powerful enough to keep anemones, so unless you are arguing that fact then watts does matter. B/c when speaking of T5 or MH then watts is a good measurement between the two types of fixtures. I realize reflectors come into play, but is someone going to argue that 150watts of T5 is not enough for an anemone but 150 watts of MH is? Is there that big of a difference? Can't we just say "PC isn't enough to support an anemone, but for a 26 gallon tank if you have 150 watts of T5's or MH then you should be okay."
Am I off here? Not trying to "stir the bees nest" but i hear the arguement of watts per gallon being obsolete all the time - but with todays technology and the efficiency of todays bulbs isn't watts per gallon GENERALLY a decent rule of thumb for a beginner? When I was looking around for light fixtures NO MANUFACTERER gave the PAR value for their fixture - it was always watts. IS there a benchmark website that shows the PAR value? If not, then how can someone determine the difference / quality of two bulbs of similar wattage?
This turned from a rant of WPG into a bunch of questions, sorry - but i'm curious now

 

[lexluethar]

Thanks for clearing that up a bit dark. I'm still a bit confused though...

 

[o2ngk]

Originally Posted by PerfectDark
PAR is measured with a meter and not only is it spectum of light your measuring but you can measure it at depths which is what we are looking for. That PAR at certain depths, tells you what can sustain life depending on their light requrements. Not only is it essential for terrestrial plants, but anything that uses photosynthesis to obtain life is dependant on that range in nanometers. A PAR Meter is fairly expensive but can be found, a more common measurement of light intensity that can be found on certain bulbs and by researching the internet. That is lumens and is often indicated by lumens per watt which is also telling you the intensity of the bulb in question.
PC's do have the spectrum of light available for photosynthesis or else they couldnt be sold as such. What they lack is the intensity to reach the inhabitants at certain depths. This is where more often than not PC lighting is insufficient, you CAN keep a BTA in a tank with PC lighting. If some guidlines are followed, first the tank is shallow no more than 12" deep, and if its not that you can guarantee that the animal will reside no more than 10 inches below the surface of the water at all times. The later of the 2 is somthing that cannot be done. Its a general rule for that fact alone that PC lighting is not suffiecient for an anemone. All bulbs, T5, PC and MH Have the spectrum available needed to sustain Photosynthesis.
Being serious into the hobby is relative, IMO I dont thing its being too serious to make sure the requirements of my inhabitants is sufficient. Having an anemone die in your tank depending on tank and animal size can have devistating results and even cause a crash.
And lastly IMO if you go into any LFS and ask about lighting, they should know what PAR is, but not know specifics. They should definatly know what Lumens are, and if they are going to recomend a light based on WPG and dont ask the depth of your tank I would turn around and leave the store.. JMO
I love the way you explain this. Lumen is the word that I am looking for.
Like I posted earlier, stuff that you bought at store are most likely mass produce and standard size, measurement, etc .. so if you have a custom made/non mass produce tank, equipment, then you really need to pay attention to the rule.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by LexLuethar
And i would still like to see someone trying to argue the fact that there is 1500 watts of PC light out there - if so the arguement of watts per gallon IS absolete. But considering the more watts you put into a fixture the more intense the light tends to be lets not pick hairs. Once I see a current light fixture that is sucking up 1000 watts and is PC, then I will say "hey you know what, watts is useless" - but as o2 said it is a good rule of thumb. PC isn't powerful enough to keep anemones, so unless you are arguing that fact then watts does matter. B/c when speaking of T5 or MH then watts is a good measurement between the two types of fixtures. I realize reflectors come into play, but is someone going to argue that 150watts of T5 is not enough for an anemone but 150 watts of MH is? Is there that big of a difference? Can't we just say "PC isn't enough to support an anemone, but for a 26 gallon tank if you have 150 watts of T5's or MH then you should be okay."
Am I off here? Not trying to "stir the bees nest" but i hear the arguement of watts per gallon being obsolete all the time - but with todays technology and the efficiency of todays bulbs isn't watts per gallon GENERALLY a decent rule of thumb for a beginner? When I was looking around for light fixtures NO MANUFACTERER gave the PAR value for their fixture - it was always watts. IS there a benchmark website that shows the PAR value? If not, then how can someone determine the difference / quality of two bulbs of similar wattage?
This turned from a rant of WPG into a bunch of questions, sorry - but i'm curious now

NO you are correct It is still a general guidline but as stated above thats only a third of the equation and often the other 2/3's is left out. First is how deep is the tank, this will tell you weather or not the watts per gal theory is going even be up for debate. PC Lighting is not intense enough to penetrate water at deep depths. So, now yes watts per gal is obsolete. The last 3rd is what is going to be in the tank, PC lighting although at shallow depths may be ok for some higher light demanding animals and corals, but truth is because they are not effiecient to begin with even at 2 or 3 inches below the surface of the water some inhabitants still wouldnt survive because the intensity of the PC lighing diminishes exponentially when it starts to travel through the water. And yes an inch can make a very big difference with PC Lighting.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by o2ngk
I love the way you explain this.
Like I posted earlier, stuff that you bought at store are most likely mass produce and standard size, measurement, etc .. so if you have a custom made/non mass produce tank, equipment, then you really need to pay attention to the rule.

Even large standard size tanks will not be able to support the high light demanding organisms like anemones and sps corals with PC lighting. The tanks get taller but the lighting does not get more intense no matter how many of them or how many more watts you put or add over the tank.

 

[snipe]

BTA anemones CAN and HAVE been kept for long lives in SALTWATER tanks with only PC lights. It HAS, CAN and WILL be done again. I have done it myself.

 

[rod buehle]

I dont consider the term WPG obsolete, I consider it completely usless and a term that should have never been invented. I agree with the guy that likes it to be perfectly dark , and with the Nugent fan Wango Tango
I can put a 175 watt halide over a corner step in a swimming pool at .000002 WPG and an anemone will do great under .oooo2 WPG.
I can put a 65 watt

[hr]
in PC over a dixie cup at a helluva lotta WPG and it aint going to do an anemone any good.
I can put a 175 over 1 end of a 125 at a little over 1 WPG and that anemone will do fine, whereas a 175 over a 37 tall at over 4 WPG an if the anemone is a sand dwelling anemone 3 WPG wont be enough.
if you go to your LFS or lightning store and ask them about PAR measurement, most likely they look at you like "what" .. but go there with WPG, they will smile and help you.
If the store is a good store that understands ighting, they will explain a lot of things about PAR and then tell you that the WPG rule isnt the best.
Can BTAs do well under PCs, Sure, if you have enough of them, and if the anemone can perch high on the rockwork, and if the water is clean enough for the lighting to penetrate the water (Carbon... Ozone.). The Rose BTAs seem to prefer lighting that is a bit more intense, but I have seen greens run from super intense lighting

 

[wangotango]

Originally Posted by Rod Buehle
I and with the Nugent fan Wango Tango
I

Someone else asked me if it was a reference to him. It's actually the name of a barbeque sauce at a place near me.
Like I said in that other thread, the only southern person who I'm familiar with is Larry the cableguy.
-Justin

 

[o2ngk]

Originally Posted by Rod Buehle
I dont consider the term WPG obsolete, I consider it completely usless and a term that should have never been invented. I agree with the guy that likes it to be perfectly dark , and with the Nugent fan Wango Tango
I can put a 175 watt halide over a corner step in a swimming pool at .000002 WPG and an anemone will do great under .oooo2 WPG.
I can put a 65 watt

[hr]
in PC over a dixie cup at a helluva lotta WPG and it aint going to do an anemone any good.
I can put a 175 over 1 end of a 125 at a little over 1 WPG and that anemone will do fine, whereas a 175 over a 37 tall at over 4 WPG an if the anemone is a sand dwelling anemone 3 WPG wont be enough.
If the store is a good store that understands ighting, they will explain a lot of things about PAR and then tell you that the WPG rule isnt the best.
Can BTAs do well under PCs, Sure, if you have enough of them, and if the anemone can perch high on the rockwork, and if the water is clean enough for the lighting to penetrate the water (Carbon... Ozone.). The Rose BTAs seem to prefer lighting that is a bit more intense, but I have seen greens run from super intense lighting
First of all, do you realize on your first example that is equal to 87,500,000 or with one less zero is 8,750,000 gallon? Now you tell me what kind of L x D x H do you have to get to have that size fo tank and more importantly the size of light with that size of tank relation is just too much to claim an anenome will be fine! Are spot-lightning the anenome?
Secondly, on you second example, you will kill the anenome because you burn it .. not because of the light deficiency. Light produce heat, the higher the wattage the hotter it gets. With close proximity you can do serious damage to your live stock.
Please get the measurement right and don't exaggerate the fact.
I dunno about NY, but in CA where we buy tank usually with 12 or 24 for Height x 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, and so on for Length and 12, 24 or 36 Width .. unless we go to custom shop, our 70 G tank size will be very much a like with our neighboor 70 G .. plus, when you shop for a light here or online, the box on the light just say what type of light, the length and the wattage. So we can be creative about this PAR, lumen, spectrum and wattage measurement, but at the end you have the length limitation and wattage limitation with different type of light that is ready for grab. Now unless, again, you go custom, chances are you pick the type of light according to what type of live stock and hopefully you will find one that fit on top of your tank and the wattage is usually will be around the WPG rule. Now in reverse, there is no possible way you can achieve enough PAR or lumen without enough wattage, unless you have the latest LED technology and spend over $2000 for it and we are not talking about a spotlight.
Finally, I never said "It does not matter what type of light, PC, T5, T6 or MH" while I brought up the WPG! Please get that accross!

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by o2ngk
First of all, do you realize on your first example that is equal to 87,500,000 or with one less zero is 8,750,000 gallon? Now you tell me what kind of L x D x H do you have to get to have that size fo tank and more importantly the size of light with that size of tank relation is just too much to claim an anenome will be fine! Are spot-lightning the anenome?
Secondly, on you second example, you will kill the anenome because you burn it .. not because of the light deficiency. Light produce heat, the higher the wattage the hotter it gets. With close proximity you can do serious damage to your live stock
Please get the measurement right and don't exaggerate the fact.
I dunno about NY, but in CA where we buy tank usually with 12 or 24 for Height x 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, and so on for Length and 12, 24 or 36 Width .. unless we go to custom shop, our 70 G tank size will be very much a like with our neighboor 70 G .. plus, when you shop for a light here or online, the box on the light just say what type of light, the length and the wattage. So we can be creative about this PAR, lumen, spectrum and wattage measurement, but at the end you have the length limitation and wattage limitation with different type of light that is ready for grab. Now unless, again, you go custom, chances are you pick the type of light according to what type of live stock and hopefully you will find one that fit on top of your tank and the wattage is usually will be around the WPG rule. Now in reverse, there is no possible way you can achieve enough PAR or lumen without enough wattage, unless you have the latest LED technology and spend over $2000 for it and we are not talking about a spotlight.
Finally, I never said "It does not matter what type of light, PC, T5, T6 or MH" while I brought up the WPG! Please get that accross!
I believe the only way you will truely understand is by doing what you think is right, and not taking the advise of the experienced. Rod Buehle, is by far not new to this hobby with over 30 years experience. He has more experience in keeping anemones and clown fish than most of us here will ever have. Most of our advise comes from reading articles written by people like him and others like Bob Fenner. (google him if you dont know) But after all the explanations with still no understanding in sight i see this thread pointless. Good luck

 

[bonesnapper]

Wow, a lot of info, I understand now.

 

[rod buehle]

Originally Posted by o2ngk
First of all, do you realize on your first example that is equal to 87,500,000 or with one less zero is 8,750,000 gallon? Now you tell me what kind of L x D x H do you have to get to have that size fo tank and more importantly the size of light with that size of tank relation is just too much to claim an anenome will be fine! Are spot-lightning the anenome?
Secondly, on you second example, you will kill the anenome because you burn it .. not because of the light deficiency. Light produce heat, the higher the wattage the hotter it gets. With close proximity you can do serious damage to your live stock.
Please get the measurement right and don't exaggerate the fact.
I dunno about NY, but in CA where we buy tank usually with 12 or 24 for Height x 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, and so on for Length and 12, 24 or 36 Width .. unless we go to custom shop, our 70 G tank size will be very much a like with our neighboor 70 G .. plus, when you shop for a light here or online, the box on the light just say what type of light, the length and the wattage. So we can be creative about this PAR, lumen, spectrum and wattage measurement, but at the end you have the length limitation and wattage limitation with different type of light that is ready for grab. Now unless, again, you go custom, chances are you pick the type of light according to what type of live stock and hopefully you will find one that fit on top of your tank and the wattage is usually will be around the WPG rule. Now in reverse, there is no possible way you can achieve enough PAR or lumen without enough wattage, unless you have the latest LED technology and spend over $2000 for it and we are not talking about a spotlight.
Finally, I never said "It does not matter what type of light, PC, T5, T6 or MH" while I brought up the WPG! Please get that accross!
My exaggerations were to prove a point that WPG is a poor rule of thumb, and in reality, they are not exaggerations. You could keep an anemone in an 8,750,000 gallon tank with a 175 halide if the halide were over the anemone,proving that WPG is a poor rule. And yes, I agree that an anemone would die in a dixie cup no matter how many WPG, Again proving that WPG is a poor rule. I also see this thread as pointless.

 

[lexluethar]

Come on guys, lets get one thing straight - this thread IS NOT POINTLESS! Just because you (myself included) got into a piss fight about PAR/Lumens/WPG doesn't make this thread useless. The original poster wanted to know about lighting, and he got a lot of difference opinions and a few (thanks dark) places where he could google and read up some more.
But to say this thread is useless is a bit much, if it is useless it is because we got off topic (not really, but more detail than the original poster probably anticipated). This was a good, informative thread - if the original poster was arguing about WPG then i could see it being pointless - but they aren't.
I hope this thread was helpful bone, let us know if you have any more questions.

 

[perfectdark]

My apologies to the original poster you are correct Lex I should of clarified that my statment was directed to the posters who are unwilling to accept what is being told. These are facts that are being stated not opinions. To those people I believe that the only way they will truley understand is by making mistakes and learning through them. This is where I believe continuing to explain this is like beating a dead horse, pointless.

 

[o2ngk]

Let us stir up a bit about this discussion with a challenge to those who claim to know about this hobby. The challenge is for you to find us "a" light that is right for the following tank:
72 G bow front, 48L x 24H x 12W, no canopy. We want the light to be able to sit on top of our tank without poking a hole on the walls, or any modification to anything.
Now please tell us what light do you suggest and please tell us the "brand" and "model number" (preferable that can be found online and not custom order) and your best explaination why?
Most of us will ask what live stock, etc, so for our sake of argument, you tell us what do you want in the tank. You can give us suggestions on different type of lights and live stocks if you have the time.

 

[perfectdark]

Aquatinincs, T series 6 at the minimum T5-HO individual Parabolic reflectors, ice cap ballasts.
Any soft coral you want, any LPS coral you want, most sps some may need to be placed up high. Anemones, most any some more light demanding ones with caution. IMO
If you went with the 8 bulb series same manufacture, IMO skys the limit.
Not sure where this is going but if you place PC lighting matching wattage the answer is still going to be no.. you cannot keep half the stuff I mentioned. For reasons explained above...

 

[wangotango]

Originally Posted by PerfectDark
Aquatinincs, T series 6 at the minimum T5-HO individual Parabolic reflectors, ice cap ballasts.
Any soft coral you want, any LPS coral you want, most sps some may need to be placed up high. Anemones, most any some more light demanding ones with caution. IMO
If you went with the 8 bulb series same manufacture, IMO skys the limit.
Not sure where this is going but if you place PC lighting matching wattage the answer is still going to be no.. you cannot keep half the stuff I mentioned. For reasons explained above...
The TX5 series only come in five bulb versions, the solar flare units have six bulbs that are overdriven on icecaps.
The five bulb unit would be fine as far as depth is concerned, but you may want more for the width. The seven bulb Constellation (if it fits over the top) would be another alternative.
I'm running the 48" TX5 on my 55, with mixed LPS and SPS. I've got a crocea clam and a few acros in the bottom half, all are doing great.
-Justin

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by WangoTango
The TX5 series only come in five bulb versions, the solar flare units have six bulbs that are overdriven on icecaps.
The five bulb unit would be fine as far as depth is concerned, but you may want more for the width. The seven bulb Constellation (if it fits over the top) would be another alternative.
I'm running the 48" TX5 on my 55, with mixed LPS and SPS. I've got a crocea clam and a few acros in the bottom half, all are doing great.
-Justin

yes it was the solar flares I was referring too. my bad..