Should i remove the DSB

[wrassie86]

Well i was over at -- reading a huge thread on peoples tanks dying that were all about 3 yrs old.mostly because of loaded and fouwled DSB's.
i had my 90g set for about 4 years and started noteing problems about 6 mos ago.but 4 mos ago i had a big move pluse was setting up a 125g to move into.so alot of new sand and water came with that and cured the old problems.Now 4 months later my tank looks great again.But now after reading that thread, it closly relates to the unknown problems i was having.
So with that said.my DSB is about 3inches i want it to be about 1inch so that i can just mix the sand once a month or so.(thinking ahead another 3 yrs)
since the bed has only been sitting for 4 mos(some of the sand is 4 1/2 years old) How should i start to remove it? Slow or just scoop it out.i figure there could not be to many toxins built up yet.any advice or suggetions greatly wanted.
PS i stir the top 1/2 inch of the bed once every few weeks to dislodge the detice.

 

[bang guy]

If you have detritus on top of your sand bed then it's no longer live. If you don't want to maintain the critter populations to keep your sand bed healthy then it needs to be removed.
I would suggest starting at a corner and siphoning out as much as you can during each water change. If there is current flow along your sand bed then start upcurrent. It will take a while to do it safely. Months probably.
I would recommend removing all of it and adding live sand to your depth preference after it's all gone.

 

[daisy]

Bang, what do you mean by maintaining the critters in the sand bed? How do I do that? (I have a DSB, and don't want to take it apart if I can avoid it)...

 

[stieger]

Stupid question, but what is DSB, and can't this all be avoided if you use a sump with bil-balls?
Stieger

 

[chris17]

I am not bang guy but I know a little bit. To maintain your critters in your DSB, it is a good idea to add one of those critter packages you can get offline. It adds more diversity but more inportantly it adds to the critter population. These critters that are in your DSB stir it up, and clean/eat the junk that is in it that you dont want. If a fish is added that eats these critters then it will love you, but the pop. of your critters in your DSB will no longer exsist, there fore your sandbed will be "dead" as bang put it. I have heard that it is a good idea to get one of the critter packages every now an again to make sure that your DSB has a healthy population of the critters you want. I dont know the words but whatever a DSB soaks up, if there are no critters to keep the sand shifted/stired the stuff that is "soaked" up will just sit there, and if it sits there for a long long time without being constantly shifted/stired all the crap that has bee soaked up will start coming back out into your tank. Its like a spnge, you run water over the sponge for a certain amount of time the water will eventually start running off the sponge which means it is full, it cant absorb/take in any more water. The same with a DSB if it is not properly taken care of.......well thats about all I know/ can remember..................HTH

 

[wrassie86]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
If you have detritus on top of your sand bed then it's no longer live. If you don't want to maintain the critter populations to keep your sand bed healthy then it needs to be removed.
I would suggest starting at a corner and siphoning out as much as you can during each water change. If there is current flow along your sand bed then start upcurrent. It will take a while to do it safely. Months probably.
I would recommend removing all of it and adding live sand to your depth preference after it's all gone.

Bang guy No i dont have detritus on the top of the sand bed ,I stir the top to try to keep any waste from settling for to long.in fact my DSB is full of worms and what not.I'm not a newbie to this (been at it for 6 years)But after reading alot and seeing the problems people are having 3-6 years down the road (including mine 4 mos ago)i'm starting to feel the critters are not enough.In fact i remember on this board about 5yrs ago when everybody was saying "DSB is the only way to go"Dont get me wrong, i love the sand bed look.
I guesse the question would be how many hear are at the 4-6 year mark on the DSB with out problems and what are you doing speacial for the bed?

 

[fishman830]

Originally posted by stieger
Stupid question, but what is DSB, and can't this all be avoided if you use a sump with bil-balls?
Stieger
no question is a stupid question!
a DSB is a Deep Sand Bed. i should think a sand bed would be much more effiecient than bioballs, and the bioballs must be freaquently cleaned

 

[beth]

To maintain or even HAVE a DSB you must maintain sandbed critters, including various worms, pods, snails, etc., and avoid predators to any of those creatures as well as predators to the bacteria on the sand [sand dwelling gobies, sand sifting stars, mandarins, etc]. In aquaria, you maintain the DSB [deep sand bed] by diversity; adding new sources of sand critters, etc., every 4-5 mos. This could be an added piece of LR, a few cups of sand from a friend's well-established tank, a detritivore kit that you buy online, swaps with fellow hobbyists or seaching around for exactly what you want.
For instance, 6 mos ago I bought these spaghetti worms. The vendor threw in the spaghetti algae for free . Now I have hundreds of these worms all over my sandbed. I can't even look at the sandbed without seeing these worms. And the algae is growing out the tank just about.
That is how you keep and maintain a deep sand bed. If you fail to do this maintenance, then dsb will fail.
The debate that you speak of was initiated by the very person who brought DSBs to our aquaria. Now, his tank flunked, and he blames DSBs. He also has a problem with most salt brands. Unfortunately because of his standing in the hobby, some have taken his opinions as gospel with negative results. As a hobbyist, you need to read as much as you can then make a decision. Keeping a tank, dsb or not, takes effort and work. And for the DSB, you need to work at the sandbed. It doesn't operate by itself. When you say DSB, it is not just "sand", but all the organisms that live in the sand. If you don't have multitudes of living organisms living in the sand, then you no longer have a "DSB". It will fail then. I pay as much attention to my DSB as I do anything else in my tank. However, its still young. Maybe it will fail in a few yrs. In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy it. You have to love DSB ecology to want one, and I do.

 

[chris17]

Beth, can you email me? I have a few questions for you....
userchris8831@aol.com thanks!!

 

[greenbananas87]

i have heard that if you stir the sand it kills the critters is this not true? I have a bunch of sand that my damsel dug out (to the glass) and i haven't wanted to move it back since i read that and that was all there was on the subject (that i saw without searches)

 

[wrassie86]

Well after about 9hrs of reading this week alone in multible forums.I'm gonna go ahead and think that there is nobody here with a DSB that is 5-6 years old and a still thriving tank.since old tank syndrome would set in after 3-4yrs Altho i could be wrong, But that seems to be the "norm". but waste is waste and it's the waste that just cant be used anymore that is the problem.So old tank syndrome will set in at some point.
But since I did go though a parcial old tank syndrome i hope to not let this happen again.after much reading i am going to 2 remote 6 inch deep sand beds.changed out one at a time every 2 years.the first is aready set up in a refuge.the second will be set up with the sand i will take from the main display,only leaving a inch or so in the display.I really think this is the best way to go for the long haul and would avoid the 3-5 year crash.
Beth
I do agree with you, and i know who you speak of, but our tanks are not the ocean and my desion was based on personal experience and others at what seems to be the normal mark.I just dont belive we can house the proper amount of critters or the storms ect.And diffinitly cannot get rid of the waste that nothing want anymore.I wish i could put all this into better terms and words but here is some very good reading
Link violation. Good source of info but not allowed here.

 

[golfish]

maintaining the live critters in a sand bed is the only way to keep it LIVE.. even then its no guarantee it wont crash (been there crashed that) I'm a firm believer in "old tank syndrome" but I'm also a firm believer in DSB. I went bare bottom on my main tank and setup a DSB in my 30 gal fuge. Its real easy to change out the sand in a fuge compared to a grown out tank.
IMO, I would take ALL the sand out and go bare bototm. I don't see the logic in stiring a sand bed once a week or at all.

 

[dburr]

I was skimmerless for about 2.5 years. I had a DSB and feed heavy. Never had a problem. I added LR and sand from other tanks every so often. Well now that I have gone SPS this year, I added a skimmer and I still have a DSB.
Since the beginning of this summer I have been having cyno problems. Can't figure it out. I have more flow (well the RIO just burned out, that's another story) I now skim, auto top off, Kalk 24/7, less fish (2, clown and a small tang), refuge, ect, and I added some sand recently from a friends tank.
I think it's my DSB. Because I fed heavy when I was skimmerless it has caught up with me. Everyday I have a coating on the bed and lower rocks. I am syphoning out sand every time I do a WC. I get a little nervous because the rocks are sliding. I think I will need to take everything out and remove the bed at some point.:nervous: I guess that would be a good time to frag everything.:nervous:
I also have a DSB in the refuge.

Well i'm done. I HTH ya.

 

[beth]

If you stir the DSB, then you defeat the functionality of the DSB. One of the primary functions of this is the bacterial colonies growing on sand grains. You can't grow colonies if the sand is in constant turmoil. That is why no sand sifting stars, sand gobies, etc.
chris, Beth@saltwaterfish.com. Be sure to put SWF.com in the Subject line.

 

[shawna]

stupid newbe question..what is fraging? ( I am still with out coral and I haven't heard the term thanks sorry (the stupid newbie)

 

[beth]

shanna, welcome to the Board. Fragging is just a term used for a type of coral propagation. If you cut certain corals in just the right way, you can grow another one. Sorta like taking a cutting from a tree to plant a new tree, only corals are not plant life they are, in fact, animals. So don't make that mistake.

 

[beth]

Just so you can see an example, here is a a picture of Kip4130's "frag" tank. Here Kip is growing and propagading many frags [fragments of mother corals].
[Hope you don't mind my using your pic, Kip ]

 

[wrassie86]

Originally posted by dburr
I was skimmerless for about 2.5 years. I had a DSB and feed heavy. Never had a problem. I added LR and sand from other tanks every so often. Well now that I have gone SPS this year, I added a skimmer and I still have a DSB.
Since the beginning of this summer I have been having cyno problems. Can't figure it out. I have more flow (well the RIO just burned out, that's another story) I now skim, auto top off, Kalk 24/7, less fish (2, clown and a small tang), refuge, ect, and I added some sand recently from a friends tank.
I think it's my DSB. Because I fed heavy when I was skimmerless it has caught up with me. Everyday I have a coating on the bed and lower rocks. I am syphoning out sand every time I do a WC. I get a little nervous because the rocks are sliding. I think I will need to take everything out and remove the bed at some point.:nervous: I guess that would be a good time to frag everything.:nervous:
I also have a DSB in the refuge.

Well i'm done. I HTH ya.
I'm willing to bet old tank syndrome is starting to set in(3-5 year mark).on my last tank it started the same way,and from there things start to get worse.theres alot of reading out there on it,always seems to start the same way.once you get to the tail end of the waste(the stuff no bacteria wants or what is locked in dead bacteria starts to resurface.and the bed cant handle anymore the problems start.I did alot of reading on the duel remote sand beds and thought this was the best way that way when one is changed out the other is still going.
Ya and i hate the thought also of taking the sand from my tank also.ya but you can change the sand in a refuge alot easyer than the main tank.i have a 55g sump that will house both of my DSB"S

 

[beth]

cyano is not the worst thing in the world. I have had it literally take over my entire tank. Turn off the lights for 5 days except for fish feeding and, opps, bye-bye cyano. Cyano is introduced as a hitchhiker into our tanks. Its just bacteria. We need to find a way to keep it under control. I have cyano growing in my tank here and there right now. Sometimes it will grow out of control, but when it does I can usually trace it back to something I did wrong.
DSBs are certainly one of the more contraversal subjects in this hobby. And they do require a willingness by the DSB-er to follow the protocol for setting it up and running it. If you deviate from that portocol then you can get yourself into trouble fast.

 

[wrassie86]

Beth
How long have you had your DSB?have you hit the 3-5 year mark?
Dont think for second that i am putting them down i love DSB"S but i feel they need to be remote as alot other, i guesse "pros"we would call in this hobby.But it's not there word i take, since they are really no better than i am.i've got corals i've had for 6 years now.and common sense says a sand bed will not last.i ve orderd my share of critter kits to repopulate the sand.new rocks,new sand now and then.the end result is where is the waste gonna go that nothing wants anymore????where is the dead bacteria gonna go that has lock up waste or metals and thus gives it back?
The worst part is,is when you have been so carefull those years and add every thing you can,and wonder why why your tank is dying after 4 years(mine was)I had not of switched tanks i would have lost every thing due to old tank syndrome.