Should the Federal Govt. Spend $1 Trillion Bailing Out US Financial Institutions?

rylan1

Active Member
Why aren't they have a forum or something with the top economist and investors... like Buffet, Greenspan, and others.... bring all into congress... give them 30 min a piece or so to explain to these congressman what the situation is... what are the options ... and the impact of what a decision could mean in relation to each option ... and the long term outlook.
Instead of a bunch of elected officials who at best are only moderately in tune with the dynamics of economy.
Bring in Bush 1, Bush 2 and Clinton. Bring in Bill Gates or whomever may have financial expertise in the market...
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2775305
If you were an investor... would you invest in these securities right now?
The problem is that they are no longer being bought or traded and are just there sitting in a warehouse so to speak...
They are sitting in a warehouse so to speak. I think he address why quite well. He is addressing the argument that the US government would make money. I tend to agree. (As argued earlier) However I'm not saying this is 100% correct, I just find this argument particularly persuasive.
Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.
Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many

[hr]
assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2775313
Why aren't they have a forum or something with the top economist and investors... like Buffet, Greenspan, and others.... bring all into congress... give them 30 min a piece or so to explain to these congressman what the situation is... what are the options ... and the impact of what a decision could mean in relation to each option ... and the long term outlook.
Instead of a bunch of elected officials who at best are only moderately in tune with the dynamics of economy.
Bring in Bush 1, Bush 2 and Clinton. Bring in Bill Gates or whomever may have financial expertise in the market...
I think it would be a waste of time, as seen earlier when we've had people like petraus have shown up. The senators didn't listen to a dang word he said. Just used it to pontificate and grandstand. Besides, if you accept the premise that this is an immediate need or crisis, we don't have the time.
 

rylan1

Active Member

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775318
They are sitting in a warehouse so to speak. I think he address why quite well. He is addressing the argument that the US government would make money. I tend to agree. (As argued earlier) However I'm not saying this is 100% correct, I just find this argument particularly persuasive.
Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.
Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many

[hr]
assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.

I understand that view, however they have been trying to sell these in the private market for a while now... and the only influx of cash has been by Buffet and the $2 an Asian business bought Lehman foreign assets for.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775324
I think it would be a waste of time, as seen earlier when we've had people like petraus have shown up. The senators didn't listen to a dang word he said. Just used it to pontificate and grandstand. Besides, if you accept the premise that this is an immediate need or crisis, we don't have the time.
I disagree.. we act as if Congress are experts in this matter... seeking advise and education is the best way to go... and show that they are trying to get it right... it would take 2 days at most to do this depending on # of speakers. Lets say they did 8 leading economists and investors... that is essentially no more than an 8 hr work day... take a day to digest, discuss, revise.... next day vote!
Make a deadline to vote Fri or Sat morning ... a sure day will hold the market and perhaps would be some gains...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2775336
I disagree.. we act as if Congress are experts in this matter... seeking advise and education is the best way to go... and show that they are trying to get it right... it would take 2 days at most to do this depending on # of speakers. Lets say they did 8 leading economists and investors... that is essentially no more than an 8 hr work day... take a day to digest, discuss, revise.... next day vote!
Make a deadline to vote Fri or Sat morning ... a sure day will hold the market and perhaps would be some gains...
First off, I don't buy that this isn't election years politics. Pelosi is trying to pull something. B/C they know when they don't have the votes. And she ran put it up to a vote anyway. I don't get Bush's support yet. I'm sure it will dawn on me eventually. He might buy into the sky is falling angle. (what I'm leaning to)
And remember the line last week was "we need this passed last friday or else."
I'm a little more cynical politicians are going to follow their own agendas regardless of evidence to the contrary.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775400
First off, I don't buy that this isn't election years politics. Pelosi is trying to pull something. B/C they know when they don't have the votes. And she ran put it up to a vote anyway. I don't get Bush's support yet. I'm sure it will dawn on me eventually. He might buy into the sky is falling angle. (what I'm leaning to)
And remember the line last week was "we need this passed last friday or else."
I'm a little more cynical politicians are going to follow their own agendas regardless of evidence to the contrary.
I heard today... that the leaders of each party met before the vote...Pelosi asked (forget his name..minority whip?) how many votes he thought they had... she said dems have enough and asked if he had 90? He said maybe not 90 but 85... she said okay we have enough wiggle room to get this done... well he was way off I think they got 68.
The outcome is now that McCain looks bad.. after saying he was going to DC to get this done
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2775467
after saying he was going to DC to get this done
So did Obama, heck he ran the meeting where they put the bill together. Personally, I don't think it reflects bad on either candidate. Because neither of them did anything. If this had failed in the senate first instead of the house, then it might reflect differently.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2775467
I heard today... that the leaders of each party met before the vote...Pelosi asked (forget his name..minority whip?) how many votes he thought they had... she said dems have enough and asked if he had 90? He said maybe not 90 but 85... she said okay we have enough wiggle room to get this done... well he was way off I think they got 68.
Forget the d and the r for a second. This stinks to high heaven of a political game. How many votes have been directly on party lines.
Personally I don't think she really cared, if they passed it, she can say the republicans passed a bill that gave wallstreet billions. If it failed. Well we see todays news.
You know what is funny McCain said today the treasury has 1 trillion dollars that it can use without direct congressional authorization.
If that is true, this whole game is useless.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2775504
So did Obama, heck he ran the meeting where they put the bill together. Personally, I don't think it reflects bad on either candidate. Because neither of them did anything. If this had failed in the senate first instead of the house, then it might reflect differently.
no... point is that Obama did not give people the impression he was going to go in and save the day... he also asked questions and showed a desire to be vested in the meeting and actually engage in the dialouge, reports are McCain just sat there.
Everyone is saying McCain didn't do anything and was counter productive in the meeting and talks afterward.
 

bionicarm

Active Member
Commentary: Bankruptcy, not bailout, is the right answer
> By Jeffrey A. Miron
> Special to CNN
> Mon September 29, 2008
>
> Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at
> Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic
> economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week
> opposing the government bailout plan.
>
> CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Congress has balked at the Bush
> administration's proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under
> this plan, the Treasury would have bought the "troubled assets" of
> financial institutions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.
>
> This bailout was a terrible idea. Here's why.
>
> The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of
> ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered
> Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two

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lending
> institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government
> implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on
> their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive
> risk.
>
> Worse, beginning in 1977 and even more in the 1990s and the early part
> of this century, Congress pushed

[hr]
lenders and Fannie/Freddie
> to expand subprime lending. The industry was happy to oblige, given
> the implicit promise of federal backing, and subprime lending soared.
>
> This subprime lending was more than a minor relaxation of existing
> credit guidelines. This lending was a wholesale abandonment of
> reasonable lending practices in which borrowers with poor credit
> characteristics got mortgages they were ill-equipped to handle.
>
> Once housing prices declined and economic conditions worsened,
> defaults and delinquencies soared, leaving the industry holding large
> amounts of severely depreciated

[hr]
assets.
>
> The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the
> current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that
> created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad
> government with more government.
>
 

bionicarm

Active Member
> The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial
> institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders
> typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.
>
> Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by
> someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy
> punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects
> of a businesses that remain profitable.
>
> In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to
> those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the
> bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count
> on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates
> enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial
> resources.
>
> Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective,
> but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic
> collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even
> for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a
> grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are
> possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.
>
> Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If
> financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit
> opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly,
> but it will happen.
>
> Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope
> of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on
> the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.
>
> The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being
> understated. The administration's claim is that many

[hr]
assets
> are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will
> recoup much of their $700 billion.
>
> If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should
> want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair
> market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed
> under the rug how little their assets are worth.
>
> The bailout has more problems. The final legislation will probably
> include numerous side conditions and special dealings that reward
> Washington lobbyists and their clients.
>
> Anticipation of the bailout will engender strategic behavior by Wall
> Street institutions as they shuffle their assets and position their
> balance sheets to maximize their take. The bailout will open the door
> to further federal meddling in financial markets.
>
> So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that
> generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning
> the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means,
> in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with
> policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into
> subprime lending.
>
> The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of
> subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place.
> Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not
> need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
I love the arguments in that article.
This is my favorite line.
The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.
 
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