Shrimp vs Damsels... think about it

[theclemsonkid]

Not trying to play Devils advocate here... well actually I suppose I am

But this whole "don't use damsels, use a piece of raw shrimp" thing I find rather entertaining.
It's like people feel their hands are washed clean of any wrongdoing simply because you are using a piece of shrimp?
Did you forget that once upon a time, Mr. or Mrs. Shrimp was very much alive and having a wonderful day until out of nowhere they were on a deck of some broke down old ship enjoying their last few moments of life.
Say what you want, but most damsels make it out alive, and some are even kept in the tank. I don't personally have the damsels I cycled with (yes, I'm a damsel cycler) but I have a few friends who do.
So let's just assume that 20% of the damsels who are used to cycle end up making it and living happy, skiddish lives harassing all your much bigger fish for the next five years.

At least they HAD a chance, unlike your shrimp who was a goner when you bought him at the grocery store along with the rest of the cattle, pork, and whatever other meat you deem "ok" to eat, eventhough they too suffered (and a LOT worse than your little damsel, you can take that to the bank).
I'm not trying to cause any trouble here, I just get slightly peeved when people pick and choose their fights to try and come across as "humane". When the fact is, people will always be inhumane to animals, that's kinda just how the pecking order happened to work out.

 

[spanko]

 

[bang guy]

I'm not a fan of the shrimp method but I find it to be far more humane than using a live fish. The difference as I see it is that the Shrimp is dead and not being tortured for weeks by having to live in an environment contaminated with ammonia.
I just use fish food.

 

[morval]

the only flaw in ur arguement is that the majority of animals in this hobby were at one point wild and caught to be put in tanks. while almost all food animals a farmed to be food and have never known there true habitat. those shrimp that are used to cycle tanks were not riped from there home and then slowly killed in a toxic soup, they were bred, fattened, and slaughtered then frozen. same with cow, pig, lots of types of fish (like salmon). so mr. & mrs. shrimp were probably never having a wonderfull day, they were packed in tanks there whole life and death was a sweet release (and delecious).
the question is why would you torture an animal when u can just buy one ?

 

[1journeyman]

There are multiple reasons not to use Damsels.
1. As Bang pointed out, why needlessly torture an animal.
2. Possible disease and parasitic infection into tank, unless you plan on Qting Damsels first (

I'm sure many do that)
3. Most typical reef tanks are woefully inadequate to handle a potentially large, aggressive, territorial fish like a Damsel, and they can be incredibly difficult to catch and remove.

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2534452
There are multiple reasons not to use Damsels.
1. As Bang pointed out, why needlessly torture an animal.
2. Possible disease and parasitic infection into tank, unless you plan on Qting Damsels first (

I'm sure many do that)
3. Most typical reef tanks are woefully inadequate to handle a potentially large, aggressive, territorial fish like a Damsel, and they can be incredibly difficult to catch and remove.
Wow the things that make you think. In number two about parasitic infection, does Ich and other parasites survive an ammonia spike of let's say 1.0? Just a question that really doesn't mean anything except to quell my curiosity.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2534461
Wow the things that make you think. In number two about parasitic infection, does Ich and other parasites survive an ammonia spike of let's say 1.0? Just a question that really doesn't mean anything except to quell my curiosity.
I would certainly guess that if the Damsel survives the Ammonia spike some ich would as well, though I have no actual data to back that up.

 

[theclemsonkid]

I cycled my original 29 gallon with a few damsels because that is what I was told to do. Obviously in retrospect, it could have certainly been done differently.
As far as "aquacultured" shrimp... The better part of the last three generations of my Dads family made their living in the coastal waters of South Carolina shrimping. I promise you these "farms" you speak of exist, but they are certainly not the only way shrimp are harvested.
Whereas, correct me if I am wrong, aren't damsels (and other popular fish i.e. tank raised clowns) raised in captivity? So in essence, they are born, raised, fed, then shipped off to random LFS all over the country so they can meet their eventual fate of death, albeit just slower and in the living and family rooms of America.
And you make the shrimps death sound like a mercy killing! I mean come on, who are you kidding. They breed them, raise them, feed them, and "plump them up". Yes, that sounds terrible to me

I'm sure the shrimp wakes up each morning thinking "please, be this the day I go to shrimp heaven!". Cause my guess is they are probably thinking "Where the heck is my breakfast?!"
And another point... I am about 99% sure I read you can cycle a tank with live rock, or just feeding the tank. So for all these people who are worried about the torture to the damsel, why not suggest one of those methods? It seems to me that for those who are against the damsel theory, plan B is always the raw shrimp. Again, it's all torture, just a bit faster for the shrimp.

 

[spanko]

Well not for any of the argument you have put forward but my take has always been to either cycle with the live rock or if you must add something add some flake or frozen food.
Anything you use though has been alive once, so your point is mostly lost. I for one would not condone the abuse of a live animal left to inhale and drink potentially life threatening soup. If you get right down to it clean base rock like tufa and dry sand cycled with urine or ammonia will serve to start a tank.
People are going to do what they will anyway so our task as members is to put out all of the alternatives based on our knowledge and I guess moral judgments.

 

[horsin1963]

I to use a ghost feeding method, no one gets hurts that way. but when you think about it. using something thats its allready dead something that you dont have to personaly torture on your own part is a much more humane way. so people want to cycle fast, the best way is to put something that is allready dead into the tank to start the cycle. by using the fish in the tank method you do the same thing as ghost feeding you over feed and it starts the cycle. granted it looks nicer having spent all that money on your tank to have fish swimming in it right from the start but think about what your doing. throwing in a shrimp creates a heavier start to the bacterial cycle. You know what the LFS uses on a new tank or I should say the LFS around where I am from.. DEAD FISH.. that is one of the reason why you walk into the stores and see a tank with only dead fish in it. people use what you have and what you want to use no one telling you different but when you ask for advise and its not what you want to hear cant help that
I am no tree hugger, I hunt, fish do all the outdoor stuff. but I have never taken more that I needed or used. I am a beef, fish, pork, chicken, lamb, to put it short red and white meat eater... I didnt torture that animal and if the animal had been tortured someone will find out and the place gets shut down. we could debate this topic for a long time... but you have your views and I have mine.. Have a nice day, and my god bless you all.

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2534476
Whereas, correct me if I am wrong, aren't damsels (and other popular fish i.e. tank raised clowns) raised in captivity? So in essence, they are born, raised, fed, then shipped off to random LFS all over the country so they can meet their eventual fate of death, albeit just slower and in the living and family rooms of America.
And another point... I am about 99% sure I read you can cycle a tank with live rock, or just feeding the tank. So for all these people who are worried about the torture to the damsel, why not suggest one of those methods? It seems to me that for those who are against the damsel theory, plan B is always the raw shrimp. Again, it's all torture, just a bit faster for the shrimp.
Regardless of why they are born, the fish are purchased to be pets.. At least that is the intention of the breeder.
If you do not buy the shrimp, it will rot and get thrown away. If every hobbiest agreed that they would no longer cycle with shrimp, I highly doubt that less will end up in the seafod dept.
We can get into another debate as to whether or not we should eat shrimp, but for the sake of this thread, the shrimp is already dead. What you use it for will make no difference. You can eat it, cycle with it or toss it. But it's fate has already been sealed. It's dead!

 

[theclemsonkid]

I should have prefaced this thread with the following:
Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to alienate anyone based on their chosen method of cycling. I am only trying to evoke true thoughts and feeling, as well as the thought process behind why each person chooses to cycle the way they do. We all know damsels are a pain in the ---, and that shrimp are delicious

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2534497
I should have prefaced this thread with the following:
Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to alienate anyone based on their chosen method of cycling. I am only trying to evoke true thoughts and feeling, as well as the thought process behind why each person chooses to cycle the way they do. We all know damsels are a pain in the ---, and that shrimp are delicious

 

[horsin1963]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2534497
I should have prefaced this thread with the following:
Disclaimer: I am in no way trying to alienate anyone based on their chosen method of cycling. I am only trying to evoke true thoughts and feeling, as well as the thought process behind why each person chooses to cycle the way they do. We all know damsels are a pain in the ---, and that shrimp are delicious
Begining statements??
Not trying to play Devils advocate here... well actually I suppose I am
At least they HAD a chance, unlike your shrimp who was a goner when you bought him at the grocery store along with the rest of the cattle, pork, and whatever other meat you deem "ok" to eat, eventhough they too suffered (and a LOT worse than your little damsel, you can take that to the bank).
I'm not trying to cause any trouble here, I just get slightly peeved when people pick and choose their fights to try and come across as "humane". When the fact is, people will always be inhumane to animals, that's kinda just how the pecking order happened to work out.

I think you got more answered than you were ready for, personaly I would preview my post and read it. think about what type of responce I will get and deceide at that time if I want to post it or reword it. that way your not trying to mix oil and water

 

[matt boyer]

I to cycled with damsels i filled the tank still coulnt see an inch into it and put 4 damsels in it only one lived and did for maybe almost 3 years was the most annoying sob imaginable. I really didnt know what i was doing at that point just geting the tank biological i thought. But who among us hasnt thoghtlessly killed if your a fisherman like me youve killed hundreds maybe thousands in similar manner. Me and my brother have used 200 shrimp a day and many a whiteing to shark fishing . I cant hunt for some reason if they got fur cant do it.

 

[theclemsonkid]

I always preview my posts and read them!
And I got the exact answers I was expecting. I was just hoping that someone could defend the idea of one inhumane death to another. I mean it's not apples and oranges.
Some people made their points (Which were for the most part well made with a sound basis) and others just danced around the question.
For me, it just all stems back to don't try and take the high road on one issue, when you don't take the high road all the time.
I will be the first to admit that I used damsels, I eat slaughtered cows, I wear clothes probably made in some third world country using child labor.
What I DON'T do, is come on here and try to say "hey, why not buy clothes from Indonesia? I hear the kids there are tortured much more quickly, and besides, they were raised to work in the factories anyways"
The last thing I'm gonna say is this:
When you cycle a tank with damsels, they suffer, and sometimes they die. When you cycle a tank with a shrimp, its already dead, and it didn't die pleasantly.
Both methods IMO are promoting an inhumane way of cycling a tank. I just prefer not to suggest one over the other, because when you get right down to it, you are taking something from the ocean, and killing it for your tank. Whether YOU do the killing, or the shrimper (we'll call him Bubba Gump) does, it's still a killing, you know?

 

[theclemsonkid]

Now, ironically enough I am going to lunch, where it's Super Tuesday at Chengs Sushi house

God, I'm a terrible person

 

[tizzo]

Originally Posted by TheClemsonKid
http:///forum/post/2534537
Both methods IMO are promoting an inhumane way of cycling a tank. I just prefer not to suggest one over the other, because when you get right down to it, you are taking something from the ocean, and killing it for your tank. Whether YOU do the killing, or the shrimper (we'll call him Bubba Gump) does, it's still a killing, you know?
I am with you one one thing... I don't really care who does what with their own tanks.
That being said, just for the sake of fun debate...
Your above statement. It doesn't make any difference to you that one is already dead when you purchase it?? So you, as the hobbiest are doing the humane thing, cause let's face it, we can't stop bubba gump no matter what we do.
And I love sushi. (But I wouldn't eat my own pets!!) where's the puking smiley.

 

[dse]

ill be honest im doing damsel cycle now A it's good for my son to see the fish 2 i dont have a clue on shrimp cycle so im never gonna do it as i dont want any thing dead rotting in my tank.
3 i dont wat to stink my house out i ave a 1 year old and a new born.
3 fish cycle has been done for hundreds of years on all styles of tanks setups.
4 i dont put fish in till 3 weeks and ill only put one-four in depending on size of fish to tank.
5 i dont see why people get upset about this thread as it has actually just help me understand a few things tbh.
its lke comparing how to place rocks and plants in tanks and weather to use plastics/synthetics or natural.
how many use LR?
if you use LR and you use shrimp cycle and moan about damsel users please be awear of the damege and rareness of LR is becoming.
your doing just as much damege buy LR then a damsel cycle just think about it before criting people.
but like i said everyone chooses there own path on how to cycle and to proceed their tank to how they like it.

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2534544
I am with you one one thing... I don't really care who does what with their own tanks.
That being said, just for the sake of fun debate...
Your above statement. It doesn't make any difference to you that one is already dead when you purchase it?? So you, as the hobbiest are doing the humane thing, cause let's face it, we can't stop bubba gump no matter what we do.
And I love sushi. (But I wouldn't eat my own pets!!) where's the puking smiley.