smoke

[spyderreef]

I've been trying to find out is cigarette smoke raises phosphate levels in a tank. I help to take care of a tank in a bar that dispite frequent water changes still has measurable phosphate levels. They have a large RO/DI unit and a carbon tank. We've tested the RO/DI and that water is fine, no phosphates. Where else can it come from?

 

[hatessushi]

someone isn't pouring beer into the tank arre they?

 

[reckler]

this is what I found on phosphates....
Phosphate is a molecular anion that carries 3 extra electrons: PO43-.
In terms of naming rules, note that we use the ending -ate for this, the most common oxyanion
in the phosphorus oxyanion series. Phosphate also forms the base for a series of acidic compounds
formed by adding 1, 2, or 3 protons to the anion:
PO43- + H+ --> HPO42- hydrogen phosphate ion
PO43- + 2H+ --> H2PO4- dihydrogen phosphate ion
PO43- + 3H+ --> H3PO4 phosphoric acid
This set of compounds forms a buffer system commonly used in colas and other soft drinks.
Compounds containing phosphates are used as fertililizers because the P atom is an essential nutrient
for many organisms. It is used in detergents because the high charge of the phosphate ion gives it desirable
properties in changing solubility of "dirt". The chart below shows an input/output cycle of a freshwater pond
ecosystem. If too much phosphate gets in the water from agricultural runoff or from sewage treatment plants,
or industrial waste, the algal life cycle which was formerly limited or restrained by the limited phosphorus, takes off.
The result is a "bloom" of algae in the pond or lake which eventually depletes the oxygen dissolved in the water
and leads to massive fish kill and "dead" lakes. The dismal condition of Lake Erie in the 1960s was very much
due to this phenomenon. (From Chemistry of the Environment, Spiro & Stigliani, Prentice Hall, 1996)

 

[fishieness]

they use it in in foods as a preservative. there are a good portion in frozen fish foods, and a lot usualy in pellets and such.

 

[spyderreef]

reckler, thanks for the info.
Customers can only view the tank, no one but a fish maintenance person has access to the tank.

 

[fishieness]

can the smoke reach the tank though? or is it sealed off behind a wall? i wouldnt doubt that ciggarette smoke can settle on the top of the water.

 

[spyderreef]

There is a plastic grid over the tank that is white but has turned brown with what I assume is smoke residue. Also the walls in the room with the tank turn brown. It is behind a wall but the same ventilation system.

 

[reckler]

smoke from cigarettes are carbon dioxide. I am no chemist but I think carbon dioxide will just deplete the oxygen in the system and not have anything to do with the phosphates. that is why I posted that artical. If I read it correctly, phosphates come from rotting vegitation and such, not from second hand smoke. I am a smoker and my tank sits next to me in our smoking room. I have been monitoring it alot because of the smoke. The only issue I seem to have is the pH.
I would guess if the pH is off you could end up with multiple problems, but the pH is to keep the bacteria in chech from how I understand. there is a good and a bad bacteria and they must be balanced to co-exsist. Like I said, I am no chemist, I am just posting what I have heard.
If there is any Mods here to check my actuacy, I would be greatfull for it.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by reckler
smoke from cigarettes are carbon dioxide. I am no chemist but I think carbon dioxide will just deplete the oxygen in the system and not have anything to do with the phosphates. that is why I posted that artical. If I read it correctly, phosphates come from rotting vegitation and such, not from second hand smoke. I am a smoker and my tank sits next to me in our smoking room. I have been monitoring it alot because of the smoke. The only issue I seem to have is the pH.
I would guess if the pH is off you could end up with multiple problems, but the pH is to keep the bacteria in chech from how I understand. there is a good and a bad bacteria and they must be balanced to co-exsist. Like I said, I am no chemist, I am just posting what I have heard.
If there is any Mods here to check my actuacy, I would be greatfull for it.
phosphates are very very common in many things... maybe form the tobacco? veggitation?
cigarettes woudl ahve much much more in them than CO2 however. But if your pH is off, then that can prevent a biologicly established tank as you mentioned with low oxygen levels, which could prevent the bacteria from breaking down the phosphates. so you would be adding phosphates with the food you bring, but jsut not taking them out. you might want to get a phos-reactor, or jsut some media and put it in your filter.
also, although im not sure if this is the cause of your PHOSPHATE problem, but i would be really really worried if the eggcrate on top of my tank turned from white to dark brown.....you might want to increase the ventilation

 

[reckler]

I guess if you had that much smoke coming in contact with your tank, you could be have alot of problems. I really didn't think of the amount of smoke you were talking about. wow if I smoked that much to do a test on the tank I would have to get an iron lung to breath.

 

[spyderreef]

I have a large fan that blows across the tank to cool the water and the ceiling is very high (more than 10' above the tank). The tank is 800 gal and it has a 150 gal sump with a large skimmer. I just installed a phos-reactor last week so I am hoping that will help. This is a fish only tank. There is very little coraline algae on the rocks. The rocks are covered with a greenish algae that is slimey looking. Could this be where the phosphate is coming from or is the algae feeding on the phosphate?

 

[reckler]

Originally Posted by spyderreef
I have a large fan that blows across the tank to cool the water and the ceiling is very high (more than 10' above the tank). The tank is 800 gal and it has a 150 gal sump with a large skimmer. I just installed a phos-reactor last week so I am hoping that will help. This is a fish only tank. There is very little coraline algae on the rocks. The rocks are covered with a greenish algae that is slimey looking. Could this be where the phosphate is coming from or is the algae feeding on the phosphate?
you have to post a pic of that tank, or should I say mini pool.....

 

[fishieness]

the algae, probaly hair algae or a sp or cyano bacteria, is growing because it has the phosphates to feed on. it just sounds like you dont have the best water quality, weather it be form overfeeding, lack of water changes, too many fish, or the cig smoke.
what do you ahve as far as fish and filtration?

 

[spyderreef]

It's not hair algae. It is a very dark green almost black and covers the rock but does not grow tall like hair algae. It looks glossy. You can't pull it off, you have to suck it up. I would have to get in the tank to do that. I change 200 gal water every 10-20 days. I could take a pic but it's not that awesome, but that's my opinion. I like reef tanks with lots of corals. So far there are 15 fish total. hippo tangs, yellow tang, yellow puffer, clown trigger, heniochus, racoon butterfly...and a couple others. There is a large protein skimmer and filter bags in the sump. A UV sterilizer is also hooked into the system.

 

[gasman4433]

It must be in the wording in how you ask the ??I posted a smoking ?? A week ago and got nothing but rude coments and flamed for it. You ask and get some real good answers.Dont get it.Ive done some checking other places and it was put to me like this.If there is smoking in a space like a living room or something of same size.After 6 months of smoking in there you will notice a layer of sticky on the walls and differnt things around the room.Thats tar and nicateen.So if that can cling to things it leaves no reason to not work its way in to the tank.

 

[anonome]

Originally Posted by spyderreef
It's not hair algae. It is a very dark green almost black and covers the rock but does not grow tall like hair algae. It looks glossy. You can't pull it off, you have to suck it up. I would have to get in the tank to do that. I change 200 gal water every 10-20 days. I could take a pic but it's not that awesome, but that's my opinion. I like reef tanks with lots of corals. So far there are 15 fish total. hippo tangs, yellow tang, yellow puffer, clown trigger, heniochus, racoon butterfly...and a couple others. There is a large protein skimmer and filter bags in the sump. A UV sterilizer is also hooked into the system.
If it is glossy and has to be vacuumed, you my friend have cyanobacteria. It can come in many different colors. The idea on the phos-reactor is a good one. I would be prepared to do a lot of water changes. And vacuum the heck out of the tank, many times to get as much as you can. The smoke can definately harm the fish over time. See if they can install a air vent, like a bathroom type to take the smoke out of the room. As far as the amount of fish, it is not overly stocked, so coming from something. Smoke would definately be my first place to look. Especially being a bar....and lots of it.

 

[acrylic51]

I know smoking isn't good for a tank, but doubt that cigarette smoke is attributing to your phosphate problems....I would think your phosphate problem could be related your the husbandry of the tank.

 

[1journeyman]

A quick Google search showed that cigarette papers contained phosphates.
I'm not an expert, by any means, but maybe that's where it is coming from.
Easy to figure out... put a glass of water in the bar and test it, wait a couple of weeks, and test the water again.

 

[gexkko]

Since no one has really directly answered your question, I will.
Yes, cigarette smoke can raise the phosphate levels in the tank INDIRECTLY. The smoke itself contains more than CO2. If it were only CO2, we would not be able to see the smoke. It contains all the nasty chemicals, both organic and inorganic, that are included in cigarettes that do damage to our own lungs.
The brown stuff on your grid is a collection of tar and other nasties. Its the tar thats the real problem. Tar is an organic compound (I can't tell you exactly what makes it up) that is naturally sticky and attracts other organics. Phosphate problems arise from overdose of phosphate-containing organics, most often from over-feeding, but they are also trapped within tar. Tobacco contains phospates, as do many of the chemicals within cigarettes.
Further, many of the chemicals will kill bacteria which process phosphates (such as cyanide) causing an inability for the tank to process phosphates you are adding through food.
If i'm picturing the tank correctly, the grid you mentioned is acting as a cover. Water vapor from evaporation will collect on the grid, reform, and drip back into the tank, taking along with it all the nasties on the grid. Replace the grid ASAP. Better yet, get a glass top.
Gas exchange is absolutely essential for tank health as you well know. However, the gas exchange happening is with contaminating, dangerous chemicals which are causing harm to the tank (you mentioned no coraline). Find a way to seal the tank from the bar intself (i.e. glass top) and maybe provide a vent for the sump or the tank itself to the outside, if at all possible.
If thats not possible, you are going to continue to have a problem in one form or another.

 

[bang guy]

I doubt PO4 is coming from the smoke. Smoking in a bar could cause low PH and a few other problems but not high Phosphate.
Overfeeding is the primary cause of high Phosphate. Foods (all foods) contain Phosphorus, it's a major building block for protein. Most Organic Phosphorus compounds that are not skimmed out of the system will eventually form inorganic Phosphate.
Make sure the skimmer is operating at peak efficiency
Make sure the skimmer is big enough to handle the system
Don't overfeed