So much for separation between church and state

aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Naw, SCOTUS members don't vote along partisan ideologies...

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/05/supreme-court-religious-minorities-dont-have-a-prayer/?hpt=hp_t1

So Kennedy feels that if you don't like listening to a prayer, simply leave the room. No one should mind or feel insulted...

Why should non-believers leave the room? You're conducting government business. Want to pray? Take your religious group outside, pray all you want, then come in and conduct business.

Wonder if these religious people would feel offended if a non-believer decided to just talk or sing something while their prayer is going on.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Sounds like these prayers happen before business begins and that it's a tradition that has been going on since the founding of this country. America has a tradition of siding with the majority. Welcome to life in America. One nation under God.
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397630/so-much-for-separation-between-church-and-state#post_3544798
Sounds like these prayers happen before business begins and that it's a tradition that has been going on since the founding of this country. America has a tradition of siding with the majority. Welcome to life in America. One nation under God.
Wonder if you'd say that if the "majority" all of a sudden said we need to ban all guns. Betcha change your mind then. When the prayers begin is irrelevant. Majority doesn't always rule, especially when it comes to religion. Keep your religion out of my government. We live in a democracy, not a theocracy. Clue you in. The phrase "One nation under God" was injected into the Pledge in 1954. It originally read - I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I've been to several Council meetings in Houston, and they don't start any of their meetings with a prayer. Want to pray, save it for your Sunday Go To meeting Revivals.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Where in our Constitution does it decree religion can be injected into our government?
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Meaning if a person wants to say a prayer in the senate chamber they can do so.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieAlum http:///t/397630/so-much-for-separation-between-church-and-state#post_3544803
Where in our Constitution does it decree religion can be injected into our government?

That's not how our Constitution works. It's not covered by the Constitution and therefore is delegated to the States. If a State is not prohibiting it then falls on the responsibility of the lower lawmakers. If they decline then it's not prohibited, but do not have a right to do it.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member

Wonder if you'd say that if the "majority" all of a sudden said we need to ban all guns.  Betcha change your mind then.  When the prayers begin is irrelevant.  Majority doesn't always rule, especially when it comes to religion.  Keep your religion out of my government.  We live in a democracy, not a theocracy.  Clue you in.  The phrase "One nation under God" was injected into the Pledge in 1954.  It originally read - I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.  I've been to several Council meetings in Houston, and they don't start any of their meetings with a prayer.  Want to pray, save it for your Sunday Go To meeting Revivals.
Actually, no. According to the supreme court if people want to pray then you'll have to wait. So you're right, when they begin is irrelevant.
So you've been to X amount of council meetings and haven't been whiteness to a single prayer but this bothers you enough to start a thread because?...
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW http:///t/397630/so-much-for-separation-between-church-and-state#post_3544805
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Meaning if a person wants to say a prayer in the senate chamber they can do so.
Sure they can, but it can't be part of government business. You want to stand around in a circle singing Kumbaya before a government meeting, knock yourself out. But one secular religion shouldn't have the right to interrupt an entire proceeding if others participating in the meeting don't have the same beliefs as that group. I'd like to see some meeting where a Christian gets up and does his little prayer, then before he can call the meeting to begin, a Muslim steps up and says, "OK, before we continue, I want to state a prayer to Allah. Please move so I can put my prayer rug down and begin." Or let an Atheist stand up and disavow the existence of God and all the falsehoods believing in that entity brings. Oh yeah, I'm sure they'd be allowed with open arms....
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
The first amendment is basically saying the government can't endorse a religion. It in no way says government and religion can't intermingle and there are plenty of SCOTUS cases saying such. The court got it right when they ended school prayer led by the teachers or staff and they also got it right when they said the students had a right to pray in school as long as the staff were not involved.

In fact all 9 justices agree prayer is allowable. They disagreed on whether or not this town's system was acceptable
"Kagan’s dissent was both narrow — the town could have remedied its problems by finding more religiously diverse prayer-givers, she said — and broad. The First Amendment’s promise, she wrote, is that “every citizen, irrespective of her religion, owns an equal share in her government.”
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Sure they can, but it can't be part of government business.  You want to stand around in a circle singing Kumbaya before a government meeting, knock yourself out.  But one secular religion shouldn't have the right to interrupt an entire proceeding if others participating in the meeting don't have the same beliefs as that group.  I'd like to see some meeting where a Christian gets up and does his little prayer, then before he can call the meeting to begin, a Muslim steps up and says, "OK, before we continue, I want to state a prayer to Allah. Please move so I can put my prayer rug down and begin."  Or let an Atheist stand up and disavow the existence of God and all the falsehoods believing in that entity brings.  Oh yeah, I'm sure they'd be allowed with open arms....
Why wouldnt they? No one has ever attempted this. Therefore you have no factual basis to stand on.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member

Hmmm, I'm not convinced no one has EVER attempted this.  More likely it's just not noteworthy because nothing happens.
I did a bit of research and didn't find anything. Admittedly, I did not look to extensively. So either it has never happened, or no one made a stink about it.
 
2quills

2quills

Well-Known Member
Government and religion have been intermingled for as long as we've had recorded history. Religion kept people united under a common belief and a system of government for collecting taxes and providing services has always been there. Our modern government seems to taken on the roll of an acting neutral religion and people seem to have just as much blind faith In it's laws to wish to push them on everyone else.
Again, I'm going to ask when and where do people stop what ever they are doing while in the middle of conducting government business to start praying?
 
aggiealum

aggiealum

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/397630/so-much-for-separation-between-church-and-state#post_3544846
Government and religion have been intermingled for as long as we've had recorded history. Religion kept people united under a common belief and a system of government for collecting taxes and providing services has always been there. Our modern government seems to taken on the roll of an acting neutral religion and people seem to have just as much blind faith In it's laws to wish to push them on everyone else.
Again, I'm going to ask when and where do people stop what ever they are doing while in the middle of conducting government business to start praying?
Talk to Michelle Bachman and Rick Santorum. They probably do it all the time.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Talk to Michelle Bachman and Rick Santorum.  They probably do it all the time.
So you are complaining about something you are not sure even occurs? Now there is a quality debate point.
 
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