So what's the big deal about Copper?

bang guy

Moderator
To quote Dr. Ron Shimek, noted Marine Aquarium Biologist:
"Copper adsorbs on to all surfaces. That is to say it binds with all surfaces in the tank, so... yes, the glass, the rock, the sand, the thermometer, inside of plumbing.... you name it, it binds to it. Then, it can slowly leach off (or rapidly come off in a pH swing). It is lethal to some inverts at 0.5 ppb, causes damage to most at 10 to 100 ppb.
It is also poisonous to fish by the way, except they die less rapidly than the parasites it normally treats for, so they can be expected to live through a treatment."
0.5ppb = 0.0005ppm
Remember that Diatom munchers like some snails are extra vulnerable because they are scraping the Diatoms off of a surface and get a mouthful of copper if any is on the surface of the rock or glass. They are usually the first to noticeably die in an affected tank. If your Snails are not living anything near their natural lifespan then heavy metal poisoning is a likely cause. FYI - Most of the Trocus species have a natural lifespan of 10 - 20 years. They are probably 2 or 3 years old when we get them.
On the plus side, a Copper concentration around 0.01 will quickly kill an ugly Cyanobacter outbreak. On the minus side, Cyanobacter is one of the primary organisms in the Nitrogen cycle for marine aquariums.
 

blackomne

Member
Thanks Bang but why did you start a new thread. Hey bang what are the effects of TDS on a saltwater tank? If you know by chance.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Bang:
reading between the lines:D
If you suspect an old aquarium of having a copper treatment, just fill it with freshwater (lower ph) and let it set for awhile to leach any copper out of the tank. and of course then discard that water.
if you have thriving snales and are fighting cyano bacteria, you do not have any copper problems.
and really really between the lines, the copper that needs to be removed from out tanks is a very small amount of the ppms of nitrAtes normally consumed by plant life.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by blackomne
Hey bang what are the effects of TDS on a saltwater tank? If you know by chance.

I wouldn't mind some else correcting me if this isn't right -
It is my understanding that a TDS meter can be used to determine Salinity in a Reef Aquarium. Otherwise the only use is to determine how pure the fresh water is that you're using. Not all TDS meters are capable of detecting both low & high TDS. A high range is required to test Salinity and a low range is required to test fresh water purity. The better TDS meters have both capabilities.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by beaslbob
If you suspect an old aquarium of having a copper treatment, just fill it with freshwater (lower ph) and let it set for awhile to leach any copper out of the tank. and of course then discard that water.

No. It would be safe to soak the aquarium in a moderate Hydrochloric acid solution but this isn't a very safe proceedure.
I would recommend using the tank for a QT or hospital tank and getting new aquarium.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by beaslbob
if you have thriving snales and are fighting cyano bacteria, you do not have any copper problems.

That is also my opinion. If your snails are energetic I long lived I do not believe you could have a copper problem.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by beaslbob
and really really between the lines, the copper that needs to be removed from out tanks is a very small amount of the ppms of nitrAtes normally consumed by plant life.

I'm sorry Beaslbob, I don't understand this statement. Can you dumb it down a bit for me so I can understand it?
Bang
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by blackomne
Thanks Bang but why did you start a new thread

This isn't a tapwater thread. It's about Copper.
 

blackomne

Member

and really really between the lines, the copper that needs to be removed from out tanks is a very small amount of the ppms of nitrAtes
normally consumed by plant life.
Hope you meant TDS because nitrates are nitrogen with bonded oxygen. There is no copper in nitrates.
 

blackomne

Member
Really makes sense. And to think most of this nation uses copper for plumbing. I am reminded of Rome and its lead pipes. I wonder what effect that copper has on us.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I'm sorry Beaslbob, I don't understand this statement. Can you dumb it down a bit for me so I can understand it?
Bang

maybe really really reading between lines means bing a s**** a**. :D
Excellent info here.
just seems that say 40 ppm nitrates being consumed by plant life would also filter 1 ppm copper down to .005ppm. Sure a stretch but seems logical.
 

bang guy

Moderator

Originally posted by beaslbob
just seems that say 40 ppm nitrates being consumed by plant life would also filter 1 ppm copper down to .005ppm. Sure a stretch but seems logical.

I agree. I believe a thriving plant growth could eventually consume most of that copper, if it got the opportunity.
My concern is that copper seems to "stick" to everything it touches according to the good Dr. quoted above. This has also been confirmed by noted Chemist Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley.
This means to me that algae isn't going to be able to remove copper well. It can't go searching for it, it can only sequester what floats by in the water column. This is probably why the results of that previous study showed very little copper in Caulerpa racemosa. I don't think it's that algae can't sequester a lot of copper, I think it just doesn't get the chance.
I was looking at the tap water supply in Georgia. It appears that's the copper content is really good (lucky you). It averaged around 0.11 ppm. That's actually really good believe it or not. Most places in the US are 10 times that amount.
 

schneidts

Active Member
plant life would also filter 1ppm copper...
How do you come to that conclusion?
Bang-
Isn't .5ppm=.oo5ppb, or do I have that backwards?
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by Bang Guy
I agree. I believe a thriving plant growth could easily consume most of that copper, if it got the opportunity.


Then the plant growth doesn't have to. And sy it slowly leaches back into the water column and plant life only gets a chance to filter out a very small amount of that. the tank, rocks and so an are still there. the plant life is harvested. So over time copper is removed and only small amounts are noticed in the plant life. An with a thriving active plant growth, most the the filtering is done by the plant life not the inverts while the water column copper has acceptable copper values.
.
I was looking at the tap water supply in Georgia. It appeas that's the copper content is really good (lucky you). It averaged around 0.11 ppm. That's actually really good believe it or not. Most places in the US are 10 times that amount.

gee i'm in alabama :D even at 10 times it is still very very small compared to the amount of nitrates being consumed.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by schneidts
How do you come to that conclusion?
Bang-
Isn't .5ppm=.oo5ppb, or do I have that backwards?

actually .5 ppm =500ppb.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by blackomne
Hope you meant TDS because nitrates are nitrogen with bonded oxygen. There is no copper in nitrates.

no i meant nitrates. but I can understand the confusion. IME active plant life can consume 160++ppm nitrates in three weeks. Went with lower number because of the questionable accuracy of the home test kits.
If plant life can suck in water with ~40ppm nitrates and expell 0.0 nitrate water a week. it should have no trouble to "accidentally" sucking in 1 ppm copper with the 40 ppm nitrates and expelling 0.0 ppm copper with the 0.0 ppm nitrates.
clear as mud right? :D
 

blackomne

Member

Originally posted by schneidts
:notsure: I still don't see the connection between consumption of nitrates and consumption of copper.

Don't feel bad I have a bs degree in fish management and I don't see the connection either.
bs degree
Doesn't stand for Bull Sh!t but Bachelor's of Science.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member

Originally posted by schneidts
:notsure: I still don't see the connection between consumption of nitrates and consumption of copper.

Basically a filtering conection only. no actual chemical connection like nitrAtes actually contain an atom of copper.
For instance, even though there is no relation between nitrAtes, ammonia, phosphates, or carbon dioxide and several minerals and vitamins, Those minerals and vitamins are added to micro algae cultures. And they are filtered out into the micro algaes. Then those algaes are fed to rotifers, the rotifers are fed to baby fish (had trouble spelling larve or larvae or whetever :d). The added vits and mins produce much better baby fish as the result.
So when the plant life sucks in nutrients and expells water without those nutrients, copper, mag, strotium, this ion, that ion, ionic galloping elephants, and whatever else comes along for the ride. Calcium is actually consumed by some plant life like corraline algaes. But calcium at 450ppm would not be affected if say a ppm or two is filtered out by plant life. mag at 1300 ppm same thing. But copper, lead, iron, and various other toxins at 1 ppm or in the part per billion range would be easily reduced to almost nothing.
Still clear ar mud huh?
 
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