So what's the big deal about Copper?

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by blackomne
Don't feel bad I have a bs degree in fish management and I don't see the connection either.
Doesn't stand for Bull Sh!t but Bachelor's of Science.

thanks for clarifying that. My bs is aerospace engineering.
I feel if you had a degree in say environmental engineering you would understand. The exact same process is used (admitttedly with FW plants) to clean up industrial waste waters, toxic waste sites, and for sewage treatment systems.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
If plant life can suck in water with ~40ppm nitrates and expell 0.0 nitrate water a week. it should have no trouble to "accidentally" sucking in 1 ppm copper with the 40 ppm nitrates and expelling 0.0 ppm copper with the 0.0 ppm nitrates.
clear as mud right?
I'm not accepting that leap. It sounds bogus to me.
Also, it is not working that way for me. My water tested at 0.002ppm Copper and I have more algae in my system than anyone I know, including you.
To answer the next question - YES! I believe my copper level is a problem and I working on ways to fix it.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
gee i'm in alabama even at 10 times it is still very very small compared to the amount of nitrates being consumed.
ROFL, sorry... I forgot... :sleepy:

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
Then the plant growth doesn't have to. And sy it slowly leaches back into the water column and plant life only gets a chance to filter out a very small amount of that. the tank, rocks and so an are still there. the plant life is harvested. So over time copper is removed and only small amounts are noticed in the plant life.
The numbers for Copper in tap water are HUGE! We are talking thousands of times higher than what we want in our aquariums. It is my opinion that Algae does not sequester copper quickly but it does sequester some.
If you add copper faster than you remove it then it must be building up in your aquarium. I believe that after a few years of this your inverts will begin to die off. Starting with snails.

 

[blackomne]

I feel if you had a degree in say environmental engineering you would understand. The exact same process is used (admitttedly with FW plants) to clean up industrial waste waters, toxic waste sites, and for sewage treatment systems.
I probably should clarify the degree. I have a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Biology and Management with both the Aquatic and Terrestial options filling. It is a zoology degree dealing mostly in management, ecology, and biologgy of fish mammals, and Birds. Unfortunately the only part I never finished is the Birds. I know that plants, chemicals, uv light and filtration can all be used to treat water. I think they start with chemicals, then filtration, uv sterilization, and plants and sometimes animals. Understandable through they don't feed these very plants to anything due to the high concentration of toxins in the plants.
Don't think you have not swayed me plants are essential to a good tank but not the primary cure to all problems. Sorry. I believe in a balance of all ingredients from light down to animals and plants.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by blackomne
Don't think you have not swayed me plants are essential to a good tank but not the primary cure to all problems. Sorry. I believe in a balance of all ingredients from light down to animals and plants.
I've been preaching refugiums with algae for a couple decades now. It's nothing new to me. I'm sure if you do a search on my name you'll see that I started off recommending them from day 1 on this board.
As you can see from this pic of my tank from early 2002, I recognize the importance of algae.
http://guynterry.com/reef/fish/fireball2.jpg
I ALSO understand some of its downfalls. There are many tools in this hobby and I believe the best aquariums incorporate ALL of them.
I believe Beaslbob is someone wearing a kevlar vest asking people to shoot him! Sure algae helps but it will not fix every problem. Throwing massive amounts of Ammonia, Nitrate, and Phosphate in a tank just because algae consumes it is backwards IMO. We should be using algae as a tool to remove nutrients, not an excuse to add nutrients.
Bang

 

[beaslbob]

bang: they may be huge. Just talked to my local water authority. seem they do add aqua mag with is a commercial additive. It is phosphate that froms a coating inside pipes to isolate the water from the plumbing. And of course phosphate is plant food.
Yes you may be right. My snales and other inverts may start dieing years from now. Just doesn't agree with my previous salt experience. Had inverts for years and years with no die off.
And as I point out huge concentrations of copper are extremely small compared to other things being removed/consumed by the plant life. With a 10% water addition per week 1ppm copper only .1 ppm has to be filtered to keep up. When the bioload is easily 20-40ppm nitrates per week i just can't immagine there is any problem. But then just an opinion. And especially if like you state, things in the tank are picking up the copper and keeping it from the algae. Gee I might even be able to keep up by say replacing those "magical" crushed oyster shells each month or so.
And finally if I notice say all my snales die off say three years from now. Gee just do a 100% water change. Or test for copper every 6 months or so. Naaaaa won't have too. Water is already isolated from the copper with plant food.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by blackomne
...
Don't think you have not swayed me plants are essential to a good tank but not the primary cure to all problems. Sorry. I believe in a balance of all ingredients from light down to animals and plants.
the reason I am on this plant kick is they are the rodney dangerfield of this hobby. Sure you have to do more than plant life. but plant life has to be there. As a part of the balanced approach we should give plant life its place in that balanced approach.
My experience over a year ago is not unique or even rare. I went from LFS to lfs. At no place did any salesman even mention the importance of plant life or even the existance of macros or true marine plants. Beyond that they stated it does not exist and tried to sell me $100s worth of live rock. And meanwhile everyone at this site and locally here were all discussing ways of getting rid of the plant life (algae) that the system generated.
Sure I made newbie mistakes, sure i went too fast. But 4 months after the first crash I started having ph drops, new fish only lasting 3 weeks. All of which stopped when I finally was able to add plant life to the system.
Yes you need a balanced approach. And that must include plant life. The industry, my LFSs, this board all need to add plant life to the balanced appraoch. Newbies should not suffer all the problems and then be suprised about marine plant life.
As you say you need a balanced approach. I fully agree. Without plant life you have many many problems. Because that appraoch is unbalanced. Not a cure all sure. But no plant life is an unbalanced cause all.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
My experience over a year ago is not unique or even rare. I went from LFS to lfs. At no place did any salesman even mention the importance of plant life or even the existance of macros or true marine plants. Beyond that they stated it does not exist and tried to sell me $100s worth of live rock. And meanwhile everyone at this site and locally here were all discussing ways of getting rid of the plant life (algae) that the system generated.
You were reading the wrong posts Bob. Most of us here push refugiums and have been for years. I do not understand where you're getting the idea we are against algae.
Had you been a member in 2002 when you had your problems you would have been quickly advised to add a refugium. I'm not saying this would have prevented your crash but it would have increased your odds of success.
Question - Where did you get the idea any of us are against having "Plant life"?

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by Bang Guy
You were reading the wrong posts Bob. Most of us here push refugiums and have been for years. I do not understand where you're getting the idea we are against algae.
Had you been a member in 2002 when you had your problems you would have been quickly advised to add a refugium. I'm not saying this would have prevented your crash but it would have increased your odds of success.
Question - Where did you get the idea any of us are against having "Plant life"?
Yea you guys do. But I think it would have been the last thing mentioned and only one of a shotgun of 12 things to do.
Besides the plant life is needed. The refugium is secondary to that.
edited*************
(noone was helping him )

 

[blackomne]

Wow, Bang and Bob are agreeing, plants are underrated they are essential. Cool.

 

[bang guy]

My complaint with you Bob is that you ALWAYS fail to mention that Caulerpa will kill most of the corals in comes into contact with. Maybe it doesn't need mentioning in the fish discussions but it absolutely should be mentioned in the Reef Forum (where I MOD).
To me the refugium isn't an option, it's a requirement.
Telling a new hobbiest to add a bunch of Caulerpa prolifera (what you've been recommending) could be a disaster in a few months if the hobbiest is keeping a reef tank. They need to know that. They need to know to keep it away from corals. They also need to know that it's very difficult to remove from live rock once it has gained a foothold without an Angelfish, Tang or Rabbitfish.
That's what I mean by both sides of the story.
My current standard recommendation in that area is a refugium with Chaetomorpha or Xenia. I'm no longer convinced Caulerpa is the best solution, but then that's another issue.

 

[beaslbob]

thank you very much bang. And we simply disagree. This seems to be the only place I get the impression that a single strand of Caulerpa touching any coral instantly kills that coral.
To me a tank with plant life even Caulerpa, and fish will simply support more corals than a tank with fish and devoid of all plant life.
And lotsa people starting out have just fo or fowlr tanks.
So even in the display getting plant life even Caulerpa is part of the balanced approach.
to me starting that balanced approach shoud be the very first thing, not the last thing even mentioned. Corals and refugiums are secondary.

 

[neoreef]

Hi,
I have no objection to plant life and/or refugiums, just an observation. I also have no space for a refugium unless it's a tiny one.
As a Newbie, I started with live rock and tap water in a 55 gal, cycled quickly and kept a FOWLR for about a month. I had marginal nitrates from the bioload (my unsalted tap water tests for nitrates are 0). Then I added power compact lights, and as soon as the green algae showed up, nitrates went to 0 and have never returned.
I have since switched to milli-Q pure water that I get from my lab at work (a well maintained filtering system designed for use in a analytical lab) and my coraline has taken off, and still no nitrates.
The algae never took over the tank, although some is always present. My rocks are very colorful with coraline as well as the back of my tank and every piece of plastic on my powerheads.
I have 6 fish: 2 clowns, 2 firefish, a scooter blennie and a pygmie angel. Not an overload, IMO.
inverts: sally lightfoot and 2 cleaner shrimp. No snails or cleanup crew.
I've got some mushrooms thriving, a xenia splitting multiple times, and a few star polyps. I am adding to the softies slowly.
I haven't lost a fish or invert since the very beginning. One of my firefish lost its tail before I got him and has since grown it back, so I can't be messing up too bad.
Bang, is a refugium in my future? Things seem rather balanced without one, or macros of any sort. Am I being naive? As I add corals, will the need for a refugium arise?
Beasl., I'll bet ya if you added PC lights, you would have the micro algae, and would not feel the need for so much macro. But then, I am still a newbie.
Thanks,
Kathy

 

[cincyreefer]

Copper is essential for anything photosynthetic as well as for humans and probably most all animals. Too high of concentrations will hurt the algae because ROS levels exceed the capacity of the cell to use, which can tissue damage. At low, but not toxic levels it can be passed on. A reef tank will not survive long term if it is copper free (although I have yet to see a copper free tank, even despite several "claims").

 

[squidd]

Originally posted by beaslbob
Sure you have to do more than plant life. but plant life has to be there. As a part of the balanced approach we should give plant life its place in that balanced approach....
...Yes you need a balanced approach. And that must include plant life...
As you say you need a balanced approach. I fully agree. Without plant life you have many many problems. Because that appraoch is unbalanced. Not a cure all sure. But no plant life is an unbalanced cause all.

This type of responce I can live with...in reguards to promoting plant life...
I'm not sure where you got the "impression" that plant life "Don't get No Respect" when most on this board agree with the benefits of plant life in a Balanced "SYSTEM"...(balanced meaning more than one aspect)
The problem lies in the responces that indicate..."You DON'T NEED this or that Mechanical Device", "Just"add the benifits of plants...
This is not a Balanced approach nor a service to the newbie...
I was glad to see a few posts where you discussed mechanical equipment in the context of the question asked (including your own experiance)and not discount it for the sole purpose of pushing plant life...
It's good to have a "purpose" in life...I'm glad you found yours...
But don't forget your "statement" above and present plant life as "an essential part" in a balanced approach...

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by beaslbob
thank you very much bang. And we simply disagree. This seems to be the only place I get the impression that a single strand of caulpera touching any coral instantly kills that coral.

Please show me where I said that. If I did I was wrong. It takes days or weeks for a strand of Caulerpa to kill a coral.

 

[bang guy]

Originally posted by cincyreefer
although I have yet to see a copper free tank, even despite several "claims"
I agree. Copper free is impossible IMO. Perhaps it's impossible to even get down to NSW levels of copper (this is what I'm thinking). But I believe it's important to get copper nearly below detection limits. Perhaps we can't get there but the closer the better. In my case I believe I need to at least cut the copper content of my water by 50%. More than one study I've seen has indicated that copper starts to damage many types of invert larvae at 0.001ppm. I'm at least double that level and it makes me very uncomfortable.

 

[cincyreefer]

Another micronutrient that is essential but never seems to be discussed is zinc. Anyone have any ideas as to what concentration zinc becomes toxic? Or have any idea what conc zinc is in nsw?

 

[bang guy]

The published NSW concentration for Zinc is 0.0004ppm.
I've seen concern about this element as well as Nickel and Cobalt. i have not seen nearly the concern over these elements though.
One study I saw showed average Zinc concentrations in saltwater reef aquariums around 0.2ppm. That seems high to me.
I have never seen anything saying it is actually killing anything, but I have seen concern over high levels. I just don't know what high levels are though if 0.2ppm isn't high.