sorry, another cycling question

john57

john57

Member
Forgive my ignorance or maybe it's lack of patience, but I've been on this forum for a few weeks and have read about everything I could find but I'm running into a situation that I can't match in others systems.
I have a 29 biocube, stock system with an extra pump and 35 lbs liverock I put in 3 1/2 weeks ago. When it arrived two day air, it was obvious from the smell that I had alot of dieoff. Ammonia went off the charts the first few days. I made water changes every day or two to dilute it somewhat.
After about 8 or 9 days, the ammonia had dropped to 0. Nitrite went up to about 1.0 and has hung at that level ever since. Nitrate has not gotten over 10. My nitrite has dropped slightly in the last 3 or 4 days to about .25 but the nitrate has stayed at 10. I've been doing 25 % changes every 3 or 4 days.
Is this a normal cycle. It seems like it's taking forever. And I told myself I would not be impatient. That went out the window.
My ammonia level has been 0 for quite awhile. I have no CUC or fish yet so I have no new bioload. Will lack of addition organics starve the bacteria?
Should I be waiting this thing out or should I be adding something to keep the cycling process active?
 
ophiura

ophiura

Active Member
In the "old days" before live rock a cycle frequently took 6 weks or so. Every tank is a little different so I am not overly concerned if this is about 4 weeks. I would say on schedule mostly.
But to be sure, what is your alk and pH?
I wouldn't worry about the bioload issue right now. I assure you that there are enough bacteria and there is nothing that you are going to add that will be better than the live rock.
 
trouble93

trouble93

Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
http:///forum/post/2890346
In the "old days" before live rock a cycle frequently took 6 weks or so. Every tank is a little different so I am not overly concerned if this is about 4 weeks. I would say on schedule mostly.
But to be sure, what is your alk and pH?
I wouldn't worry about the bioload issue right now. I assure you that there are enough bacteria and there is nothing that you are going to add that will be better than the live rock.
+1 your on track just give it time!!!
 
john57

john57

Member
Every I turn on here, I hear patience, patience, patience. You'ld think it would sink in.
My ph is about 8 by the way. Salinity is 1.023.
I'm determined to do this right the first time. No fish and inverts for awhile.
Thanks for your responses.
 
jaybroreef

jaybroreef

New Member
Hey John.... If I was you I wouldnt even mess with water changes right now, just let it go naturally!! I know its hard waiting, but it will cycle!!!
 
robertmathern

robertmathern

Active Member
I would do a water change to keep your live rock live. You will not hurt your cycle. It is going to come down either way. And what your alkilinity. PH 8.2 is goos you generaly want 8.2 but 8.0 is fine your well with in the safe zone. So your alk should be ok to.
 
dustyboy316

dustyboy316

Member
I think the ammonia will go down and nitrates and tries go up, and then the ammonia will spike again or something.
Just wait it out, it sucks I know but it will be worth it.
Have you noticed any living organisms such as snails or worms yet?
 
ophiura

ophiura

Active Member
I wouldn't expect a second ammonia spike unless something has gone wrong...
Ammonia should spike, after a few days you should see nitrites starting to register, then ammonia decline as nitrites increase then nitrates start showing up. Ultimately you will have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and probably relatively high nitrates.
A second spike of ammonia would be unusual, IMO...and I might even be a bit concerned about it, so hopefully that doesn't happen
 
john57

john57

Member
Thanks again for all the feedback. I'll just sit back and twiddle my fingers for a couple of weeks until these numbers zero out. So close. Nitrites read at below .25 now but not quite 0. Nitrates have never really spiked very high, which I hope means the system is breaking this down as I go.
My PH is about 8 which I'm ok with. Not much showing up in my system other than some hair algae which I hope my CUC will take care of when the time is right. I've got some kind of crab living in a hole in my rock which I thought was dead with the cycling, but he made it through. Doesn't come out so I can get a good look at him. I know that alot of these crabs are not the best in a system but I hate to dump him after all he's been through. I can't get a close look at him, but whenever I get close with something, he closes over himself like a trapdoor. So is that a crab or some other creature?
 
pete159

pete159

Member
doing water changes during the cycle will only drag on the cycle.
there was no need to do a water change every day or 2 after you noticed the smell and ammonia reading, that only made things take longer. just sit back and wait for ammonia and nitrite to be 0.00 and nitrate to go up. Then do your water change and add fish.
 
keebler

keebler

Member
Something that a lot of people don't understand is that the reason that the cycle drags on by too many water changes is simply that you are removing the bacteria's food, not the bacteria directly. The bacteria lives on the aquarium's surfaces...such as live rock and the substrate. Immediately following a cycle, your trates will probably be really high. A water change immediately following the cycle will not affect the bacteria and doing a huge water change afterward is a good idea. Just remember that if you replace half the water, you are essentially removing half your nitrates. But don't get too hung up on nitrates.
 
john57

john57

Member
Some on here say that early water changes do not slow the cycle. They only dilute the ammonia if it is at high enough levels to get too much kill on the live rock. My ammonia tests early on looked like pea soup in the test tube, way above what the kit could measure. And the water changes really didn't lower the ammonia all that much. More than enough concentration left to keep the cycle going.
That being said, it has taken quite a long time to cycle the tank. I attributed the long cycle to a very high ammonia level early which caused more die off in the live rock resulting in more organic matter to break down.
I am new to saltwater, so don't take these observations as gospel.
 
snakeblitz33

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
I would do water changes during the cycle. As Bang Guy says, do water changes and don't allow ammonia to spike too much, so there is more live things on your live rock. Which makes absolute sense. (I'm not quoting bangguy, but I have read this in his sig.)
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
This is the way I look at it and my experiences have backed this up.
If ammonia is present in the water then it is being produced faster than bacteria can consume it. Having twice as much ammonia will not cause the bacteria to consume it twice as fast. The bacteria population is the limiting factor in this, they reproduce quickly but it's not instant.
If there's 1.0ppm ammonia and you do a 50% water change then ammonia will be around 0.5ppm. You have not removed enough ammonia to slow down bacteria growth. To do that you would have to reduce ammonia to zero. As long as there is some ammonia detected then ammonia is not the limiting factor for bacteria growth.
If ammonia climbs too high it can become toxic even to the bacteria that consumes it. Too much of a good thing. This will, with certainty, cause your tank to cycle longer. In some cases MUCH longer.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2892067
If ammonia climbs too high it can become toxic even to the bacteria that consumes it.
Bang, it is my understanding that the higher ammonia concentrations actually inhibit the growth of Nitrobacter the bacteria that convert nitrite into nitrate, not the Nitrosomonas that convert the ammonia into nitrite. Knowing that the high levels of nitrite are not good for adding livestock either.
Is this not the case?
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/2892079
Bang, it is my understanding that the higher ammonia concentrations actually inhibit the growth of Nitrobacter the bacteria that convert nitrite into nitrate, not the Nitrosomonas that convert the ammonia into nitrite. Knowing that the high levels of nitrite are not good for adding livestock either.
Is this not the case?
Yes, that is also true. but not quite as much of a concern to me. Although every tank is different. The nitrosomona bacteria that consume Nitrite, in my experience, multiply very very fast. If you have actual knowledge of this then I defer to any study you've seen but anecdotally, these bacteria seem to be able to double their population in just a matter of minutes.
And to add a bit more, Nitrite isn't very toxic in saltwater. Just slightly more toxic than Nitrate. Even at its worst in a cycling tank it may get up to 2 or 3ppm and it really isn't much of a problem in the short term even up to 50 or 60ppm.
 
spanko

spanko

Active Member
Seems toxicity is a wide term. Does the study mean toxicity to the point of death?
From anything I have read the nitrites are more detrimental (death) to freshwater fish in levels much lower (less than 1 ppm) than saltwater fish (330) ppm.
In my last post I was just pointing to the quote as saying that Nitrospira and similar bacteria are slow growing organisms.
 
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