Starfish question

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wildmike

Guest
I was thinking about getting a Serpent Star from the u-build it section and I had a couple of questions. First I had a green brittle star and when he got bigger he became aggresive. Is the serpent star going to do the samething?? I know it kinda depends on the animal more then anything.....If any or you guys have one let me know what you think.....Thanks
Mike
 

leigh

Active Member
i bought one of the serpent stars only about a month ago. he's grown a ton already but mostly just hides under rock. i see an arm or two sometimes coming out of some buried location but he doesn't seem to have any interest in the other fish (nor do the fish seem to have an interest in him). i've liked him as an addition to my ecosystem--so that's 1 month old knowledge for what it's worth. -leigh
 

ophiura

Active Member
There is no way to know. I have heard nearly every brittlestar/serpentstar (there is no biological difference, BTW) implicated in predatory attacks. However, I believe a great number of these involve animals that are weak, stressed, dying or dead....even if the hobbyists can't tell yet. Be sure to keep all of them well fed; do not allow them simply to scavenge.
If you get the large red serpentstar, be forewarned that this is one of the most delicate serpentstars in the hobby, and they must be acclimated for as long as possible. 4 hours, using a drip method is, IMO, the minimum acclimation time. They are extraordinarily delicate, so take your time with them. Be sure that your specific gravity is in the 1.025-1.026 range.
 

leigh

Active Member
ophiura-
So I should be spot feeding my serpent star? Even though she is clearly growing? And, what's the best way to find her to spot feed her! The lil gal is quite a sneaky one :) Would it stress her to move the rocks she is hiding under in order to spot feed, or is she better off being left alone to scavenge--so long as the limbs i do see continue to be getting larger?
-leigh
 

ophiura

Active Member
I suppose if you are sure it is getting larger, it may be getting enough. It depends how much you feed the tank really. Do not try to move the rock. The brittles should respond when food is near the tank, or held near the tips of the arms.
 

bwets_angel

Member
You don't ALWAYS have to spot feed starfish. They are scavengers and that's what they will do, scavenge for food. All four of mine have never been spot feed and are all growing and are doing quite well.
 

redawg

Member
the way i feed my serpant star is with a little chunk of brine shrimp every 2 days. using tongs i hold it by the serpant or the rock he's under.. after a couple of weeks doing this he learned how to take the shrimp from the tongs and feeding only takes about 30 seconds and is really cool to watch
 

ophiura

Active Member

Originally posted by
ets_angel

You don't ALWAYS have to spot feed starfish. They are scavengers and that's what they will do, scavenge for food. All four of mine have never been spot feed and are all growing and are doing quite well.

I am sorry, I disagree. And I suspect various oystermen around the world would disagree.
Though some of this argument is semantics, because, of course, we are not throwing in live food for these guys. It is a matter of how much do you feed the tank...do you feed just enough for the fish, or do you insure some stuff hits the ground. If you make sure that stuff hits the ground in roughly the area the stars are in, well, you are basically spot feeding these guys. That's all this is about. Otherwise, if they are just cleaning up fish waste and stray flakes, that is a different definition (though the one I think generally used in the hobby).
FWIW, Seastars and brittle/serpentstars are not all simple scavengers of the latter type, adapted to get by on little bits here and there. In the wild, OK, this may be so...because there is a lot more available. But many people either do not feed their tanks enough or have too many clean up crew animals to insure everything gets enough. The green brittlestar, for example, is a known predator in the wild, and, I have heard of nearly every brittle/serpentstar in the trade implicated in a predatory attack on some tank mate.
Brittlestars and seastars are also very different...those that you have, chocolate chips and the african red are generally considered to be predatory. They will certainly take part in feeding on dead fish, prepared foods, etc, but they will also happily chow down on various bivalves, snails, and other stars, etc. if they are hungry.
Linckia species seastars, as well as Fromia (the 'reef safe' seastars) are in no way scavengers and quite commonly die of starvation. I would argue more die of starvation than actually survive one year. There are many highly specialized feeders that would starve in many tanks.
By all means, if you don't want to feed your stars anything else, don't do so. If you have kept them a year, and they have grown significantly, then I will agree they are fine. Most do take about a year to starve to death, so this is the key time frame. Indeed, many non reef safe stars kept with predators do quite well, because predators are quite messy feeders.
But not all species are simple scavengers, able to get by with a flake here and there. Large animals may not get enough food this way. If you feel the animal is growing, then don't feed it. But also don't be surprised if anything (snails, shrimp, small fish, polyps, etc) goes missing. This is true of the non reef safe seastars, the green brittlestar, and perhaps other brittle/serpentstars. Spot feeding will not insure that they will not catch and eat something, but it might help. These animals will not allow themselves to starve to death if they can avoid it.
 

bwets_angel

Member
Ophiura, do you have a degree in marine fish? If not why is it that you think you know everything about everything? Just curious.
:)
 

leigh

Active Member
yowsers, sorry, i feel like i'm to blame for the degradation of this topic since i was the one to give the initial (potentially bum) advice, but i don't think ophiura claims (nor do i think really anyone else thinks she claims) to know everything about everything. however, i think most all of us would consider her the resident starfish expert. i for one re-evaluate my starfish approach when her comments are counter to my intuition and i think a lot of others on this board would agree.
oh, and ps, her shark status indicates that at least a few people think she knows her stuff.
 
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wildmike

Guest
ets_angel I don't think you have as much knowledge as ophiura!! She really know what she is talking about. You do not have to have a degree to know anything. I value her opinion very much and i thank her for her advice. Thanks everyone for your advice
Mike
 

bwets_angel

Member
I know I don't know as much nor do I claim to know as much. The only thing I claim to know is stuff I have learned from first hand experience. All I am saying is that everything she says is not always true. Like how she keeps saying that you MUST spot feed a starfish or it will starve to death. That is not always true and I know that for a fact from first hand experience. Sorry, she really just struck a nerve with me.
 

leigh

Active Member
this is getting silly, but she did not say you MUST spot feed. she said unless you're already feeding more than the fish eat so some finds it's way to the bottom, they COULD starve. plus experience and degrees are different. you asked first if she had a degree in it. i have a masters degree in marine engineering, but i don't know diddly about star fish. then you say it's experience that counts. i think we'd all agree with that. that's why we trust ophiura. you read more into her post than was intended.
 

bwets_angel

Member
No actually what it is, everytime I post something about my starfish she posts pretty much saying it's all wrong but oh well I'm done fighting about it.
 

ophiura

Active Member
No, I have only taught about marine fish....studying marine fish would have absolutely nothing to do with starfish, because, of course, they are not fish.
Rather, I have my graduate degree in Biology, with a focus on marine invertebrate zoology, echinoderms (seastars, sea urchins, brittlestars, sea cucumbers and sea lilies) in particular, and have studied brittlestars exclusively for over 10 years, at some very respected institutions. Does this count? (Aside: yes, friends and family, except those who study even more bizarre critters, are puzzled by my profession :D)
And I accept that we are not keeping natural ecosystems, but artificial closed ecosystems that are generally overstocked and pack together loads of animals that would not otherwise coexist.
And I have read about loads and loads of dying starfish. Considering they don't die so young in the wild, there are only a few explainations...the first being that the diet they are receiving in most cases is not sufficient. Unfortunately, it takes most nearly a year to die this way, giving the false impression to many hobbyists that they can keep them, but that they are short lived. On the contrary, it is my opinion, and the opinion of most of my colleagues who hope to see many of these species outrightly banned from this trade, that they are not getting the proper diet in our tanks resulting in a sure death.
And facts are facts, not all seastars and brittlestars are effective scavengers. Your advice would result in a certain death for all reef safe stars, unless they happened to be in a tank with enough LR. It would result in certain death of basketstars, featherstars, many filter feeding brittlestars and other highly specialized feeders like sand sifter stars. You happen to be keeping some of the toughest and most adaptable stars in the trade. Most of us are, in fact, because most brittle/serpentstars also have the ability to catch other things. We have assumed
brittlestars are mostly laid back scavengers, but the more we look, the more we learn, that many are highly efficient predators. Very adaptable creatures indeed.
But not all of them, as I have learned by killing a couple. Lesson learned, and hope to pass that experience on.
Again, with certain species...if you are feeding the tank (more than just the fish), you are, in effect, spot feeding anyway. No arguments...but many hope to be a bit more focused in their feeding, rather than just putting a bunch of food in and hope it gets cleaned up.
Don't throw in an insult, and expect a :) to change things. I don't know everything, but I know an insult.
 

redawg

Member
so what's the best thing to feed a serpant star? i feed mine a small chunk of frozen brine every other day.. also got a chocolate chip that i can't get to take brine.. however i do notice it feeding on things in the crushed coral.. it sucks a bunch in then lets it back out.. doing this it makes small mounds all over the bottom of my tank and usually takes about a hour before it'll move to make a new mound.. his color is kinda light but he's never been darker in my tank.. i've only had him a couple months.. what would u suggest for spot feeding a cc star?
 

ophiura

Active Member
They will both feed on the same stuff...you can try shrimp pellets, small pieces of squid, krill, silversides, etc (serpent should probably get smaller pieces than CC...my serpents have a bad habit of just letting big hunks of food go after they are full). You can even try algae wafers now and then (everyone needs veggies sometimes :D ).
The serpent should grab for it, and the star can be put on top of the food, or the food can be placed at the tip of an arm. Since they move so slowly, it is important to give them something that won't dissolve too fast. That may be the current problem with the CC.
 

foulbrew

Member
Actually, have to go with
ets_angel who made a legitimate submission based on experience (experience that mirrors mine) and was told by Ophiura that it was flat out wrong. Opinions can be wrong, conclusions or interpretations can be wrong but by saying the experience offered by
ets angel is wrong is the same as calling him/her a liar. I doubt
ets_angel got to the explanation about it being a different interpretation of what was going on, or would care after the opening statement. If anyone insulted anyone it was Ophiura insulting the integrity of
ets_angel.
Secondly, I have read many of Ophiura posts and have found them to be for the most part valid well informed opinions. There are other opinions form folks that are just as valid and well informed (on this board and others) who disagree with her on several issues. This board is a benefit as collective wealth of experience not as place to go to get just one opinion (if that's what you're looking for by one and only one book). It is of no benefit if the environemnt is one where disagreement is frowned on and you can only get one opinion/experience about starfish or any other thing.
 
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