Stupid Alveopora! Ahhh

[shawnts106]

ok, yeah yeah, spare me the guilt and dispare ok!... My alveopora has not opened all the way in 2 days.. so today i got some more Kent Iron and some DTS and fed the thing for a half hour... target fed!
and added the iron to the dts and also put it in the tank.. hopfully this will help it
Its kinds in the middle of the tank... the lower middle in the 75 gallon reef with 440 watts of VHOS on it... is this too much light? is this the reason why its not opening???
I know they are a lower light coral.. that has to have iron and phytoplankton... so what other advise can any of you experienced alveopora/goniopora keeps can tell me
BESIDES.. YOU SHOULDNT HAVE GOT IT!!!!
I will not tolerate someone telling me... you shouldnt have got it!
THE ONLY WAY we are going to be able to learn how to keep these corals is if some of us take riskes and do experiments!!!
just like Bang... trying to bring up manderans!!!
so back off all you... mean people you! lol!!
ok 4 real.. any advise?

 

[pyro]

I've heard its just too hard to get such nutrient rich waters that they naturally live in. If they are lower light corals, I wouldn't move them into a high light area, it could do more harm than good.
I'd say just keep testing your water and acting accordingly, good luck!

 

[ivanfj]

You just got him lately or he's been in your tank for awhile??? Give the guy some time. Corals do take some a few days to open up again after a chance in environment. Was it opened up when you bought him??? Good luck.

 

[ophiura]

Originally posted by shawnts106
THE ONLY WAY we are going to be able to learn how to keep these corals is if some of us take riskes and do experiments!!!

Well I am sure you don't want to hear this, but I left the "background research" thread alone...this time I can't pass up. But I won't say you shouldn't have bought it.
To do experiments you need an experimental set up where you can control various factors and actually determine what seems to contribute to success, and what doesn't. How does your system set you apart from other people who have tried them and had them die? FWIW, MANY people have "taken the risk." There is a lot to learn from their experiences, even if their opinion is not to keep one. There are people who will be a bit nasty in telling you that...and there are others who will be constructive if you are open to it.
To further your experiment you could try and avoid what they did. If your set up, however, is like the majority of others then your coral too, will fail. I admit I am a bit annoyed with this idea that you are taking the risk and you are the one "experimenting." I don't buy that. Come out and say "OK I wanted to try, I did the research, (I think I remember such a thread....), I set up the tank in such a way, and I thought this would be different....You know what it isn't going so well, what should I try."
So you wanted to give it a go and bought it...fine...just don't try and justify it for us with this sort of thing. We can all admit to mistakes or even (failed) calculated risks, I hope, without having to justify it this way. I know people get snotty (tang in 55, for example) but being overly defensive (which is what it seems like) is a weakness that those sorts of people go after. If you are comfortable and researched and want to try, so be it...but leave it on that level. I don't think the "risk taker" thing flies far here.
After all, it may not apply to many, but I, for one, was a big (at the time uneducated, misinformed and extremely niave) "risk taker" when I first got started.
Sorry, JMO from reading the threads related to this. I don't mean it to be a flame.

 

[shawnts106]

You just got him lately or he's been in your tank for awhile???
hes been in there several days.... I do have some good news as soon as im done with replying.. it should be at the end of this post
To do experiments you need an experimental set up where you can control various factors and actually determine what seems to contribute to success, and what doesn't.
DUH, and I dont mean those kinds of experiments... I am not being scientific because the people who have them in their tanks are scientific, meaning they dont sit there and research and test and watch and conclude.. ect.. when they buy an alveopora... so we dont need to be scientific in this experiment that I am doing.... thank you for that information anyway
How does your system set you apart from other people who have tried them and had them die?
I am not going to just sit back and let it die.. and My system is of course very different than that of anyone elses just as yours is different than mine or ... NMreefs, or bangguys
Ok now for the good news you have all wanted to hear IM SURE ! LOL
Well.. just so you know the Alveopora is fine and blooming ever more beautiful by each passing day!
why?... well as you know the coral didnt open for about 3 or 4 days... so... I knew these corals have to have a diet rich with phytoplankton and zooplankton as well as Iron, because that is what is found in their natural environment... SO
I simply took a bottom of DTS Marine Phytoplankton and some Kent Iron and mixed it up, let it come to room temp and added some Aminos and Vit C complexes from Neutra Sea, as well as some LIVE CORAL FOOD with spirulina, let that come to room temp and then I turned off all the circulation in the tank, waited a few minutes and target feed this coral for 40 minutes... then I turned the pump BACK on and all the circulation continued.. also added a bit of iron to the aquarium water... also, for the macro algeas in my refugium....
Yesterday, I noticed it was bloomed back out again, not fully but bloomed... and today, it looks better than it did before it started to close up...
Wether this was the phytoplankton or iron or a mixture of both or wether it was just the coral still aclimating is not of my knowledge.. but concidering it was gettnig worse untill I did this... I would bet the whole tank on it was the corals diet needs being met through the direct feeding of DTS LIVE MARINE PHYTOPLANKTON and KENT IRON additives!
anyway, its doing wonderfully, and Ill keep you all posted on this coral and its health!
Thanks for your comments... they are all appreciated...
and no this thread is not closed ... yet! LOL

thanks again!

 

[tony detroit]

Originally posted by shawnts106
so today i got some more Kent Iron
What research has brought you to this conclusion?

 

[ophiura]

shawnts106, are you a marine bio student...or a student in any field of science?

 

[tony detroit]

Originally posted by shawnts106
just like Bang... trying to bring up manderans!!!

Don't drag bang into your bad decision........:nope:

 

[reefraff]

I had an Alveopora that did great for more than a year until I damaged the main colony and killed it
I never target fed it, just added a small amount of Phytoplan freeze dried photoplankton to the flake food I feed every day. I still have a few polyps that spread to another rock but they haven't grown a great deal.

 

[shawnts106]

Oh my, there are a few things I definatly need to clear up, lets begin!
What research has brought you to this conclusion?
ALOT.... several years, hours, days, minutes... reading, researching, talking to marine scientists, talking to owners of these corals, having them myself, collecting data, experimenting with elements adding them to the tank... ect... once again... ALOT! haha
shawnts106, are you a marine bio student...or a student in any field of science?
Wellllll... thats what I plan on going to college for... yes, I am a student *senior* and I do research marine ecosystems and aquarium husbandry, and also extensivly research corals, fish, inverts, you name it, if it has anything to do with marine life, thats me!!!
I know that I am young, and by NO means am I saying that I am smarter than anyone else, but I am saying that just because I am young doesnt mean that I do not know what I am talking about on certain subjects... I do. And by no means do I say that egotisticly!
but thank you for asking if I was a marine Bio student or a student in any field of science!
Don't drag bang into your bad decision........
You misinterpreted what I said, I didnt say bang made a bad decision or whatever you though.. I said that My tank is different than bangs and NMreefs... just as yours is different than mine, or the lfs tanks! .... although, I would HOPE that EVERY reefers aquarium is different than a lfs!!!! LOL
I never target fed it, just added a small amount of Phytoplan freeze dried photoplankton to the flake food I feed every day.
once again phytoplankton... , did you add any additives that had Iron it them?
also, how old is your aquarium.. if im not mistaken cycled well established aquariums do produce some phytoplankton, which also helps feed the larva of certain small creatures, like cocopods and amphipods, ect... which in turn feed corals!
I know someone who adds Dts and Iron to their aquarium, whom I talked to today actually!!!, and they have had an alveopora for 6 months with no bad behavior... and I am well aware that it may tank several months if not a year or two for these corals to die... however most die within the first 3 to 5 months... , possibly the additions of phytoplankton, and iron, possibly not, however I will bet its the phyto and Iron, anyone who has research these corals know they come from nutient rich phytoplankton filled murky, Iron rich waters from Lagon type reefs....
I will let you all be the judge... My opinion is made up, which is very obveious to me that Alveoporas need to be fed additions of Iron and Phytoplankton in order to thrive *or survive* in captivity!
Thank you all for reading with me!
any comments will be greatly appreciated, as long as they are not flames!
thanks again!

 

[discusking]

I think that the main reason that your alveopora opened up the next day is because of the increase in nitrate in ur aquarium following the large feeding that you performed on ur tank. As you probably know, nitrate fixating bacteria reduced the ammonia produced by the food you added and converted it first to nitrite then nitrate. Since ammonia is the limiting reagent in this biological process it makes since that with the increase of availible ammonia, the equilibrium between the ammonia being excreted by other reef organisms and the ammonia of the decomposing food changed. Everything on earth wants to lean towards homeostasis and with this change in ammonia more product was produced. To sum it up more ammonia = more nitirate. I think that the reason your alveopora opened is not because of the feeding, but because of the increased nitrates. Usually lagoonal ecosystems, like the one alveopora is from, has nutrient rich waters with higher levels of nitrates than those found on an intertidal reef.
THats cool that you do research on fish and corals. I personally do underwater ecology research at my college! WOO GO BIOLOGY MAJORS!!!

 

[shoreliner11]

You might want to think about adding so much iron and dt's...although I know you want to care for your coral...unwanted algae growth will kick in.

 

[nm reef]

...is there a picture of this alveopora available?
I for one would like to physically see the coral as it is now...then periodic pics as it progress in your system.:thinking:

 

[shawnts106]

To sum it up more ammonia = more nitirate. I think that the reason your alveopora opened is not because of the feeding, but because of the increased nitrates.
What ammonia was adding to this system.. the phytoplankton? This is fresh, right off the truck LIVE MARINE PHYTOPLANKON, not dead freeze dried, or preserved phyto... live... I suppose that some of it had died off just from being collected and shipped.... however it would Not have been enough to make a serious impact on the ammonia levels in my aquarium... I do not think anyway!
The Iron wouldnt produce ammonia, so thats out of the question.
hum... this is a possibility... thank you for your imput!! quite interesting!!!
Yes I am also aware of the lagoonal reefs have more Nitrate in them... this is because of the increased abundance of PHYTOPLANKTON, which the Alveoporas will eat!
I still stand firm on my belief that the Alveopora and Goniopora Species need an abundance of phytoplankton in their diets
Because I have read, and also, NMREEF has posted all this information on these species....
one of the facts when I read this was when they collected wild samples of these specimens and checked the contents of their polyps they found mostly... by far mostly, Phytoplankton.. I forget what else was found in their gut.... or should I say oral disk... NM can you post that same information here... its reallly super interesting!!!
OH, NM, also, Yes I was thinking of putting progression picture up... I just have to get off my lazy butt and take them ! LOL, I will take a picture of it later on today for all of us.
The lights came on this morning and it was the first to open up fully within an hour!
thanks again
Ps: NM, please post that information for all of us to read

 

[diadema]

Am I missing some history with this guy? Seems like he's very quick to jump to conclusions but he means well.
I mean - I thought I could change the world when I was a kid... Just because he's not doing things the scientific way - why should it matter?
We all know alveos have a terrible track record - hell I had one that lasted about 18 months and it was fragged several times. But like so many others it suddenly died.
If Sean can keep this thing alive for a few years by trying new things - good for him. Will this "further the hobby" by giving us insiteful information about what works with them. No.
Again - perhaps I'm missing the backstory with him...

 

[shawnts106]

I had one that lasted about 18 months and it was fragged several times.
ARE YOU SERIOUS.. WOW!!! did it regenerate? Did it grow new colonys?
It may have died to a bacterial infection because you fraged it so many times, maybe a sudden change in aquarium chemistry, possibly ran out of food... or something else could have caused it... sometimes there are no explanations for these things...
that is wonderful that you fraged yours... I dont know how you would have done it but please... share with us how you did!! very interesting!
OH yes... here is a picture of mine.. just taken!

 

[shawnts106]

and another

 

[shawnts106]

and one last one

 

[diadema]

looks pretty good. Mine was a fast growing branching alveopora and I would periodically snap off a few branches and trade them to people.
As far as a bacterial infection - doubt it.
What's difficult to understand is ALL of the corals - my 2 main colonies (It got so big I had to split it) and ALL the frags (probably 5 or so) died within the same 2 week period. All in different tanks, all under different lighting/levels of skimming, etc...
They're just doomed. I'm sorry.. Think of it like the caged bird that want's to be free. Maybe we're just not meant to keep them....

 

[ophiura]

Originally posted by shawnts106
but thank you for asking if I was a marine Bio student or a student in any field of science!

Will you take some advice from someone much older with much more experience in the field than you currently have? From what I've read I doubt it but I hope. I've studied marine bio, I've taught it, I've worked in that field....
You are off to an early start. All the reading and studying is GREAT but, the danger already is that you have the attitude of many a marine bio (and I might add pre-med) student. I figured pretty quickly that was what you were studying - not from the logic of your posts but from the attitude of them.
It is not to be taken as a compliment.
When I worked at an Aquarium, they never wanted to hire a marine science/biology student as an aquarist. It was generally a negative thing to be. Because "they," marine bio students, are widely perceived to have an attitude that they knew it all, and were difficult to work with.
From reading your threads, and now knowing how young you are, please just take the time to think about how you sound and how you reply. Getting different opinions is part of being a scientist, whether you agree or not - or even if you think the other person is a total idiot. But you have to learn how to solicit opinions, take criticism, and certainly know how to admit an error as freely as you publish a success. You need to learn the limits of your knowledge (An example: success with corals from day to day is a pretty limited scale- Especially to be claiming such and such is the best thing for them....lagoonal reef have a number of very different physical characteristics far different from most of our tanks - but again, if you want to try and provide for it, go for it...I don't think it is delusional to try it). There are very few jobs in that field and a lot of people who want them...you have to write grants, be very good at selling yourself, but at the same time be able to work well with colleagues and take the back seat to them....people who also have strong opinions that you may not agree with. And the worst part is they may be right.
You have a bright future, but you have a long way to go and no book to help. Again, not talking about your husbandry of the coral specifically...but there is a way to contribute more to the keeping of alveopora - the "risk taking and experimenting"- than by covering it with all the attitude. JMO