stupid sump still having problems...

[gio28]

ok, well i finally decided it was time to try to get my sump up and running again but nope...it still won't work.
heres what i have:
-eshopps overflow with a 1" U tube and then 1" PVC going straight to the sump
-1" PVC return with a ball valve to throttle down the pump if needed.
anyways...I get the overflow going and then I turn on the pump...heres what happens:
1) bubbles like crazy (despite the standpipe i made for the overflow)
2) sump level drains
3) i have to throttle down the pump
4) the pump is making an extremely loud noise and my overflow is still making this gurgling sound in the sump...
i have no idea how to fix this. any ideas? thanks!

 

[gill again68]

Sounds like your overflow is "flushing"? I have some questions?
1) On the sump level drains part, do you mean to say that your return pump is draining the sump when you turn it on?
2) The bubbles, are they getting back to your DT?
3) Can you post some pictures of your sump set up?
Now without any of that information its all a S.W.A.G. from here.
In my sump I have a return pump that is to large for my needs. So what I did to "throttle back" my pump and not destroy it by putting back pressure on it was this. Just above the return line I placed a T-fitting and made a line that would feed back to my return section where my pump is. Then just above that I installed a ball valve and now can adjust that valve so that a percentage of my flow goes back to the return section of my sump and the rest goes to the DT. This way the pump can run at full capacity like it was intended to and will not burn up. That may fix that issue.
The gurgling you hear in your down pipe. I found that not having a "straight down" pipe but rather having a slope or 2 90 degree elbows in the line would allow for the water to slow down and not flush so much. You will also want to make sure your end of the down pipe is not more than an inch or maybe 2 below the surface of the water. This will cause back pressure and will also cause the flushing.
Now for the bubbles, I cant see your sump so thats hard to know what you have going on. So if you can post some pics then that would be great. You can also look at a post that I make in my 90 gal build that shows a "muffler" that I made for my system when it was making all those crazy noises. It really made it very quite.
Hope this helps.

 

[beaslbob]

1) you should not need to "throttle" the return lines ever. The drain should keep up with 100% return flow.
2) sounds like the overflow is breaking breaking siphon. You need to fix that to insure reliable operation. With power out the u tube siphon should be underwater at both ends.
my .02

 

[gill again68]

Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3241523
1) you should not need to "trhottle" the return lines ever. The drain should keep up with 100% return flow.
2) sounds like the overflow is breaking breaking siphon. You need to fix that to insure reliable operation. With power out the u tube siphon should be underwater at obth ends.
my .02

+1
You should not have to throttle back your pump but if you have, like I did, already purchased the pump there is no reason to throw it in the trash. What I have posted is a "FIX" to the issue and not the preferred setup.

 

[tim514]

Make sure all of your connections in your return line are cemented and sealed. If any of these connections are not sealed properly, you could be introducing small air leaks into the return line causing bubbles.
Do you have a protein skimmer? If you do not have a bubble trap in the intake section of the sump or after your protein skimmer, you will allow the bubbles generated from these two sections to be pumped into your DT.
I have my return line at 100% and my overflow line cut back to about 75% to eliminate the annoying sound of water spewing out of the siphon break hole. I have a mag7 pump for my 75gal.

 

[tim514]

Also, the overflow pipes should not be restricted at all. You might need to make the return lines bigger for more flow rate.
Flow rate is dependent on the cross section area of the pipe that it is flowing though. Flow rate = Velocity*Area

 

[gio28]

Originally Posted by Gill again68
http:///forum/post/3240800
Sounds like your overflow is "flushing"? I have some questions?
1) On the sump level drains part, do you mean to say that your return pump is draining the sump when you turn it on?
2) The bubbles, are they getting back to your DT?
3) Can you post some pictures of your sump set up?
Now without any of that information its all a S.W.A.G. from here.
In my sump I have a return pump that is to large for my needs. So what I did to "throttle back" my pump and not destroy it by putting back pressure on it was this. Just above the return line I placed a T-fitting and made a line that would feed back to my return section where my pump is. Then just above that I installed a ball valve and now can adjust that valve so that a percentage of my flow goes back to the return section of my sump and the rest goes to the DT. This way the pump can run at full capacity like it was intended to and will not burn up. That may fix that issue.
The gurgling you hear in your down pipe. I found that not having a "straight down" pipe but rather having a slope or 2 90 degree elbows in the line would allow for the water to slow down and not flush so much. You will also want to make sure your end of the down pipe is not more than an inch or maybe 2 below the surface of the water. This will cause back pressure and will also cause the flushing.
Now for the bubbles, I cant see your sump so thats hard to know what you have going on. So if you can post some pics then that would be great. You can also look at a post that I make in my 90 gal build that shows a "muffler" that I made for my system when it was making all those crazy noises. It really made it very quite.
Hope this helps.
thanks everyone for the replies. I should have been more clear when I posted my problem.
The return is draining the sump faster than the overflow can handle. I think the overflow is rated for much more GPH than it actually can handle. When the water goes through the u tube, (which holds a siphon fine and has no bubbles in it) the water goes over the baffle in the overflow (from the u tube part section to the drain section). the problem is that when it spills over the baffle it splashes cause into the drain cause the drain drains the water so fast (allowing air in the PVC). I made a ball valve on the intake to the sump, but I dont see the point of closing it some due to the fact that the pump is still stronger and the overflow is so slow already. this is why i made a standpipe.
the bubbles are not going back into the DT, they do however make this huge gurgling sound. I know for a fact that the air being introduced is coming from the overflow box, since I would think air trapped in the intake pipe would eventually stop coming out.
I will try and post pictures later.
Also the intake pipe has a straight section, then a 45 degres elbow to bring the pipe under the stand, and then another 45 right below the water level to make the pipe vertical again. I will try and post some pictures of this also.
lastly, I bought the necessary PVC materials to try the T-fitting idea. I think that should definitely fix the problem of the pump overpowering the overflow. I will have to try and hook it up later this week if i get the chance.

 

[gill again68]

Good! I hope some of that information was helpful. The above post suggest putting a ball valve on the down pipe. I wouldn't do that! You should never restrict your flow out of your tank. If your pump over powers your overflow then you will have a new problem of trying to get all the water off the floor.

 

[cranberry]

What kind of standpipe do you have? Some types need holes drilled in the top. If you have the kind that does (picture would help) you may just need to drill a hole or two in there. If you already have one drilled... drill another. If that's not the type of standpipe you have, maybe it's one you should look into.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3242275
What kind of standpipe do you have? Some types need holes drilled in the top. If you have the kind that does (picture would help) you may just need to drill a hole or two in there. If you already have one drilled... drill another. If that's not the type of standpipe you have, maybe it's one you should look into.

+1
I had a similiar problem in a new durso typhe pvc overflow I built untill I remembered I had not drilled the air bleed hole. I had to actually drill it twice because the first hole was not big enough.
so one of the first things you should try is taking the cap off the durso so that it is totally open to the air. If the fixes the problem then recap it with a (larger) air bleed hole.
my .02

 

[gio28]

lol

i totally forgot about drilling the hole! wow...thats definitely why...
and yeah leave the ball valve totally open...although by having it on there is slows the flow a little...idk why i put it on...but unless i really have to...i dont plan on fixing it cause that will be a pain lol

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by gio28
http:///forum/post/3242860
lol

i totally forgot about drilling the hole! wow...thats definitely why...
and yeah leave the ball valve totally open...although by having it on there is slows the flow a little...idk why i put it on...but unless i really have to...i dont plan on fixing it cause that will be a pain lol
Woopsies.

Been there done that.
glad to help.
Is it working now?
my curious .02

 

[gio28]

I havent tried it yet...because i still have to work on the T fitting on the return pipe. I will hopefully get it done tonight.
Im kinda hesitant though to start up the sump till the weekend though...that way i can make sure that its dialed in properly to assure there will be no water on my floor since i will be home.

 

[gill again68]

Do you know how to adjust for the amount of water to be in your sump so that if the power goes off you wont have a flood?

 

[gio28]

Im pretty sure I do. I just adjust the height of the box and then simulate one and make sure it dosent overflow...right? That then becomes the lowest height the surface skimmer box thing can be placed at. Anything higher is safe...although if it is too high then the pump will have the possibility to run dry...right lol? (once evaporation kicks in).
I also drilled holes in the return...so a reverse siphon does not happen.

 

[gill again68]

Originally Posted by gio28
http:///forum/post/3243426
Im pretty sure I do. I just adjust the height of the box and then simulate one and make sure it dosent overflow...right? That then becomes the lowest height the surface skimmer box thing can be placed at. Anything higher is safe...although if it is too high then the pump will have the possibility to run dry...right lol? (once evaporation kicks in).
I also drilled holes in the return...so a reverse siphon does not happen.
Ok I am a little tired and not exactly sure if I follow what you are saying here. I think you are talking about finding the heights that your pumps and skimmer will run at and then your final water height after all your equipment is installed?
Well if thats it then yes you have to find those. Your pumps and skimmer will give you those depths. You can allow your return to run in deeper water but your skimmer has to operate in a specific range.
Now as for the total volume for the sump. What I did is after I had all my heights for all my equipment then I put my equipment in the sump and placed it under my DT. I started filling more water in the DT and allowed that to flow into the sump. You will also want to fill your skimmer as it will hold more water than you think. With your return pump off, fill your sump to your minimum run height. Then once you have reached that then mark that line for you minimum and then turn your pump on and begin filling again until your water level returns above your minimum line. Then you can turn your system off. You will get a siphon from your return lines. Keep check on your level to make sure that when your pump is off that the siphon breaks before your level exceeds your sump. If you have plenty of room after the siphon breaks then you can afford to raise your level a little more. Once you have done this you will have your maximum fill line while the pump is running. That way you know where to add your top off water to.
I hope all that makes since. Its late, Im not happy and Im tired.

 

[beaslbob]

Perhaps I need to do an overall sump setup thread.
But FWIW
When I first started my sump the first problem I had was the reverse siphon. but that was pretty obvious in initial testing. And corrected with anti siphon holes or having the return lines above the display water line.
But I had three floods before I figured out that under an overflow failure (siphon break, blockage, whatever) the sump should run dry before the display floods. So now I simulate an overflow failure and insure that happens. Then mark the sump level when normal operation returns after I reestablish the overflow. From that point on I never add water above that line.
my .02

 

[gio28]

Thanks alot guys...im pretty sure i understand most of it

I should be ready to start it up this weekend

...if im not totally burnt out from taking the SAT lol

 

[starfishprime]

Now I'd hate to hijack this but since we both have eshopps, wet/dry's did your overflow box come with a standpipe?mine came with a single straight pvc tube and i was told to put the cylinder type of filter pad over it and use it as a pre-filter. Just wondering because mine does the whole 'gurgle' effect every 15 seconds.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by starfishprime
http:///forum/post/3247150
Now I'd hate to hijack this but since we both have eshopps, wet/dry's did your overflow box come with a standpipe?mine came with a single straight pvc tube and i was told to put the cylinder type of filter pad over it and use it as a pre-filter. Just wondering because mine does the whole 'gurgle' effect every 15 seconds.
I you don'thave a durso but just a straightpipe the is gurgleing every 15 seconds, I could be water is backing up in the drain until at some point it has enough weight to push out into the sump. That can happen (I have neard) if the sump end of the drain is below the water level in the sump. Try moving the drain above the water level and see if the gurgle/flusihgn action stops.
Just a thought.
Worth at most .02