florida joe
Well-Known Member
why ghost feed ? And the answer is ....
Sugar dose post cycle
- Thread starter Shilpan
- Start date
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
IMHO macro algae is the way to go.
Do anything you can to establish a good growth until nitrates drop to unmeasureable levels.
If you don't have a refugium, consider an in tank refugium. What I did in my ole 55g was cram in 1/4" plastic grid (egg crate) lighting diffuser about 3" in front of the back glass. I used power heads at the top to hold it off the back glass and lava rock or live rock rubble at the bottom.
I then added 2 4' 2 tube 6500k shop lights behind the tank (6" or so) pointing forward. And placed chaeto, profilera, and grape macro between the back glass and the egg crate.
Macros and pods took off and thrived and my 2two tangs and other fish really enjoyed grazing on the macros the poked through the egg crate.
Nitrates dropped (from 80-160ppm) to unmeasureable in 3 weeks. Phosphates followed a few months later.
Tank ran with no water changes for 9 years.
Just my .02
Do anything you can to establish a good growth until nitrates drop to unmeasureable levels.
If you don't have a refugium, consider an in tank refugium. What I did in my ole 55g was cram in 1/4" plastic grid (egg crate) lighting diffuser about 3" in front of the back glass. I used power heads at the top to hold it off the back glass and lava rock or live rock rubble at the bottom.
I then added 2 4' 2 tube 6500k shop lights behind the tank (6" or so) pointing forward. And placed chaeto, profilera, and grape macro between the back glass and the egg crate.
Macros and pods took off and thrived and my 2two tangs and other fish really enjoyed grazing on the macros the poked through the egg crate.
Nitrates dropped (from 80-160ppm) to unmeasureable in 3 weeks. Phosphates followed a few months later.
Tank ran with no water changes for 9 years.
Just my .02
No water changes for 9 years...
But like wouldn't trace elements run out by then??
And ahh the nitrites were working before, they tracked up slowly from 0.25->0.5->1->3->5ppm. I'll give it a bit longer before I dump that test.
These tests came with my tank. But when I buy tests a few months down the line for my first corals, I'm gonna go Red Sea
But like wouldn't trace elements run out by then??
And ahh the nitrites were working before, they tracked up slowly from 0.25->0.5->1->3->5ppm. I'll give it a bit longer before I dump that test.
These tests came with my tank. But when I buy tests a few months down the line for my first corals, I'm gonna go Red Sea
beaslbob
Well-Known Member
I did use the diy 2 part for calcium alk and mag plus no hard corals were there. fish and soft corals seemed to do fine though.
(fwiw water changes will reduce but not eliminate build ups (nitraes) and depletions (calcium, alk) in our tanks)
IME (before I used macro algae) nitrItes would peg the kit (5ppm) for a few days then drop down. The is with a single fish in the tank and no feeding. On my first tank a 10g with a neon goby, nitrItes pegged the test kit for many weeks (4-6 or so). then dropped down when I stopped adding food to the tank.
my .02
Hey Bang guy, any particular reason you believe nitrite test isn't faulty? Is is it a commonly known thing for API kits?
Or I should it weird that nitrates have gone so high and nitrites haven't finished yet? Maybe I'm too new but I thought this amount of time to wait was normal.
Or I should it weird that nitrates have gone so high and nitrites haven't finished yet? Maybe I'm too new but I thought this amount of time to wait was normal.
one-fish
Active Member
Hope I can hop on in this,,,, For I too have questions and concerns with API test kits, this is not the first time I have read that. Also that nitrites are not as toxic as we have been told. FW fish yes but not SW fish. I have been waiting for my tank to cycle for 3 months now. I have no LR or LS just popped in a table shrimp and let nature do its work. In my case nature has been very slow..Reading from yesterday Amm. 0ppm, NO2 2ppm, NO3 5ppm, Salt 1.0245, PH 8.3, Temp 85 deg. (bumped it up read it would help bacteria growth). My past experience says wait till NO2 is 0ppm (was off scale) before adding livestock. After reading this thread.. My NO2 level is not a concern or yes it is because my tank has not fully cycled... Matured ..?. Should I still be ghost feeding (I have but not on a schedule) ?. Should I add some macro algae to the sump ?. As far as the test kit I think next one will be different. Thanks All .....this has been an interesting topic to me.
bang guy
Moderator
Do you have anything in the tank for bacteria to colonize on?
one-fish
Active Member
Yes about 50lbs of dead rock, 90lbs of sand and 6lbs of ceramic pellets in sump. Saw both Amm. and NO2 spike ...took a month for Amm. to zero..waiting on NO2 to zero. Have seen NO3 levels as high as 60ppm that was a month ago. Levels are dropping but very slowly but I figured that since I used no LR or LS. If I were to do this again I would go with the LR but I have waited this long now I am in it for the duration. Have read this method will work if you have time to wait it out.
Thanks for the help..
Thanks for the help..
2quills
Well-Known Member
Most evidence points to nitrite not being toxic to saltwater livestock from what few actual studies have been done.
But after months of cycling the fact that they and nitrates are still detectable indicate a lack of anaerobic bacteria present in the system.
One could look into ways of increasing it or one could consider other options like macro algae.
If you believe your system needs macro algae than you should treat growing and caring for that algae as important as anything else.
My .001
But after months of cycling the fact that they and nitrates are still detectable indicate a lack of anaerobic bacteria present in the system.
One could look into ways of increasing it or one could consider other options like macro algae.
If you believe your system needs macro algae than you should treat growing and caring for that algae as important as anything else.
My .001
florida joe
Well-Known Member
Your macro algae is going to do nothing for your nitrites. As a side note anaerobic bacteria does not reduce nitrites.
My .02
My .02
one-fish
Active Member
Agree with the " a lack of anaerobic bacteria present in the system " thats why the wait. All from what I have read I think at this point I need to abort the idea of not using LR....Hell just wanted to go this route 1st time I did it with fish..
Joe ..And again from reading I thought that the anaerobic bacteria was to covert NO2 to NO3 and is found deep in rocks and sand beds requiring little or no O2 to survive and grow. At this point I don't know where I am at....
Joe ..And again from reading I thought that the anaerobic bacteria was to covert NO2 to NO3 and is found deep in rocks and sand beds requiring little or no O2 to survive and grow. At this point I don't know where I am at....
2quills
Well-Known Member
Nitrobacter is the type of bacteria that oxidize nitrite into nitrates and can grow in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions.
They are not the same bacteria responsible for oxidizing ammonia or nitrate.
So effectively aerobic bacteria are responsible for ammonia. Anaerobic bacteria for nitrates and the nitrobacter that deals with nitrite are the go between.
Joe, I'll give you that nitrites are not are not a preferred source of nitrogen for algae. But since nitrite isn't really toxic to livestock I still prefer it for some of its other benefits to the system that anaerobic bacteria doesn't provide.
They are not the same bacteria responsible for oxidizing ammonia or nitrate.
So effectively aerobic bacteria are responsible for ammonia. Anaerobic bacteria for nitrates and the nitrobacter that deals with nitrite are the go between.
Joe, I'll give you that nitrites are not are not a preferred source of nitrogen for algae. But since nitrite isn't really toxic to livestock I still prefer it for some of its other benefits to the system that anaerobic bacteria doesn't provide.
-yeah the bacteria which convert nitrite are aerobic. Haha when I'm seeing patients it's interesting actually, anaerobic va aerobic bacteria have completely different courses of disease and required treatments as a result. So if we see gas bubbles forming for example on imaging, we'll know whichever antibiotics to give without even sampling, because we just give one which covers anaerobes.
-agree with Joe there. My nitrates fell from 40-60ppm to 20-40ppm after 1 week of macroalgae. But nitrites still high.
-I talked to the LFS, he told me at least with the API batch in NZ there are no problems as long as it isn't expired. He did a dilution for me and got a 0 reading. So for my case I just need to wait. I think what's going on is I have bacteria converting nitrite to nitrate, but the die off from the dead rock means the ammonia to nitrite bacteria are working way faster, so there's a bottleneck at the nitrite. As Joe said earlier, just gotta be patient as they will go away eventually.
-agree with Joe there. My nitrates fell from 40-60ppm to 20-40ppm after 1 week of macroalgae. But nitrites still high.
-I talked to the LFS, he told me at least with the API batch in NZ there are no problems as long as it isn't expired. He did a dilution for me and got a 0 reading. So for my case I just need to wait. I think what's going on is I have bacteria converting nitrite to nitrate, but the die off from the dead rock means the ammonia to nitrite bacteria are working way faster, so there's a bottleneck at the nitrite. As Joe said earlier, just gotta be patient as they will go away eventually.
one-fish
Active Member
Thanks for the lessons...My take away..Look at O2 absorption in water. Ensure sufficient surface area for bacteria to colonize. Ensure food supply for bacteria to grow. Other than time What am I missing ? Its been 3 months .....really would like to see a little life in there...........Keep hearing in the back of my mind my Mom saying "Good things will come for those who wait"... Like the algae idea can easily do that in the sump seems to be the right thing for down the road. May go to LPS and see about some rubble LR for sump also. Thx Again..
florida joe
Well-Known Member
If your nitrification and denitrification were to travel on a straight line at this time in your tank development. You would see zero ammonia a nitrite reading and a higher nitrate reading. BUT you have entered macro algae into the equation. So your nitrates are lower than your nitrites. Timing of your testing also has to be taken into consideration. Ammonia to nitrites has to happen almost instantaneously. The nitrites to nitrates need not happen so quickly and the nitrate elimination even slower. So you can in fact be testing at a time when you have a high nitrite concentration before it can be assimilated by your macro algae. Its hard NOT to have sufficient area for nitrification to take place. it will basically colonize on anything that is within the flow of organic breakdown.
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one-fish
Active Member
Ok then...1st I have no macro in tank yet. Testing is done weekly. On my to do list...Small ghost feed every third day Test every third day Do not exceed .5 ppm Amm. WC as necessary and wait it out. I was assuming cycle was stalled in converting NO2 into NO3. Sure was easier 25 years ago ... Hell by now I would have lost a couple fish already...Lol.......Really want to make this work I enjoyed that tank..
2quills
Well-Known Member
I think the key point here is not to get to hung up on nitrite and nitrate. Both of the those Types of bacteria (and there are many of each) are denitrifyers. Meaning they either need or prefer low oxygen environments.
Most sensitive fish need plenty of oxygen in the environment.
So you need to evaluate your own set up, see what you're working with and then decide which steps you should take.
Just because you wait x amount of time for levels to drop doesn't mean they won't change once you start stocking the system.
Most sensitive fish need plenty of oxygen in the environment.
So you need to evaluate your own set up, see what you're working with and then decide which steps you should take.
Just because you wait x amount of time for levels to drop doesn't mean they won't change once you start stocking the system.