SUMP PLUMBING QUESTION.....

[cosmosbasement]

Hey gang-I just got myself a ten gallon tank and a over flow. I'm going to use a 802 PowerHead for the return pump. What is the best type of tubing for the overflow tubing and the return tubing? Any reccomendations on how to get this thing started or any way to do it right the first time? Should I use anything to clamp the tubes down in the sump? How low or high should I install the overflow tubing in the sump and also how high or low should I install the tubing for the return?
peace
doug
ps-It's a 55 gal reef. The only the sump is housing is live rock, heater, skimmer and filter.

 

[option720]

I am in the same situation as you are. I have heard that you can use a type of plumbing hose called "spa hose" or i am going to call a place that sells pool products and ask them about the flexable hoseing that the use for pool vacumes. it is 1 1/2 inches in dia and looks like the stuff that comes with the wet/dry for the LFS. If anyone else has any ideas, please share.
emile

 

[sonny]

You can get flexible tubing from any home store like lowes or home ***** . You will want to get a larger tubing for the overflow, as you want to make sure it has no problem keeping up with the pump. For the return, take your power head to the store, and find a tubing that will fit over the outlet of the pump. You should get a plastic cable tie to help hold the tubing in place on the power head. You will also want to find a bit of cpvc pipe (1/2 inch) that will fit into that flexible return tubing, so that you can fashion a pipe for the return. Use elbows and cpvc glue to make the return for the tank. Make sure you drill an anti-siphon hole (inside the tank) or else don't put the pipe very deep in the tank.
Sonny

 

[jimi]

An 802 is no where near enough for a return pump on a 55. On a 20 maybe. As far as the set up goes you can run ribbed tubing like the kind used on pool filters for the connection from the overflow to the sump. Flexible tubing from HD as mentioned will work for the return. You can buy some hard J- shaped tubing for the top of the return if you just want to hang it over the back of the tank.

 

[tanker newbie]

jimis right, also have to take into conseration how much head will be on the pump, also heres a hint at the top, where the hose goes into a plastic peice, into the diffuser, drill a small hole close to(not AT the top) but close to it, there for if any black out happens, the suction is lost and water dosent flow down from the diffuser,
to get it started i would first set the tank on the bottom, and everything how you want the bottom to be(includeing return pump) then i would start the suction for the over flow, (letting the overflow do its job)fill the bottom tank to the desiered level, then turn the return pump on(and whatever other filteration you have)

 

[cosmosbasement]

jimi-I was told by my lfs (very reliable and great advice at all times) that the 802 will be enough for what I'm looking to do. Are you sure it won't be enough? I'm going to start building tonight. I want to keep the return pump as a power head, so if you have any reccomendations please let me know.
Thanks
doug

 

[jimi]

What are you looking to do? With the head pressure you will be lucky to break 300gph with an 802.

 

[bobj]

The reason that the lfs recommended the 802 is that it will produce about a 300 gph flow, like jimi said. Many reef manuals recommend greater than 5 times the tank vol in gph. A 55 gal tank would require a minimum of 275 gph. This would make the 802 adequate but marginal.

 

[cosmosbasement]

Hey gang-Thanks for the replies. Another question....if I get a stronger powerhead, will this be too much power for a 55gal? Let me know.
Thanks
doug

 

[broomer5]

Doug,
You'll want to find out what your overflow is rated for in GPH.
This will be the limiting factor for sizing your return pump ( powerhead )
Good luck - have fun !
Brian

 

[option720]

be careful here. You don not want your overflow to out flow your return pump, but you also do not want your pump to completly drain all the water out of your sump. What i would do is make sure that you pump will do more GPH than you overflow and then put a ball valve on the return line until you get everything dialed in.good luck
emile
[ July 13, 2001: Message edited by: option720 ]

 

[fishinchick]

huh? Might want to rephrase that there, I was following this topic pretty good until now..... can ya reword that please?

 

[webnstuff]

for what it's worth, I use a mag 1200 (pump not powerhead) which after "head pressure" gives me 1000gph in my 75 gal reef. Now this is going to a 55 gal "sump". The problem is when you look at "flow rate" on a pump, that can be deceptive...Head pressure means "the distance water must be pushed against gravity". sorta.... all that just make the pump "work harder" to move water which will lower the output....
does that make sense????
shoot me if i am crazy...just trying to help.

 

[broomer5]

fishinchick
you're were right to bring that point up about rephrasing the reply made by option720.
When sizing up an overflow, sump and return pump combination - the OVERFLOW will always be the limiting factor for selecting your pump. You can not return more water up to the tank from your sump than your overflow is capable of draining back down to the sump. If you do you WILL overfill your display tank.
It's best to decide first what turnover in GPH you want for your system ( example: 55 reef tank - pump rated at 550 gph at 4 feet head = roughly 10 turns per hour )
Therefore your overflow MUST be rated for more than the 550 gph that your return pump will produce. What goes up - will come down at the same rate.
Size of the sump should be related to size of your display tank.
HTH
Brian

 

[pat]

ok i am no expert......actually dont have much experience at all, but reading through this.....couldn't you put like a shut-off valve on both the flow and return line, and then match flow rates using those as controls, keeping them as open as possible??? or will the syphon on the overflow fill too fast and cause a problem? just sorta got to thinking about that so whats the verdict?

 

[broomer5]

Yes Pat you could certainly add a valve on both inlet and outlet lines to control the flow. A lot of people do just that.
My point is that in doing so, you must then tweek each valve, opening or closing it off in order to "balance" the flowrates. Normally on pumps, it's best to run them wide open with as little restriction or induced backpressure on the pump. You buy a pump to pump, and you select that pump to do a job. Pumps run most efficient and will not create as much heat if allowed to run unobstructed.
Most well designed sump, return pump and overflows always have a larger hose intalled on the overflow that gravity feeds or allows the water to "drop" down to the sump, as compared the size of the hose going from the return pump back up to the tank. This is quite the norm.
If you start messing with trying to balance the flows with valves you end up doing a couple things.
1) Adding unnecessary restrictions in both lines, which will reduce pressure/flow from your pump, or creating a situation on your overflow line that will not allow enough water to fall to the sump. That's what valves do - and that is why some folks choose to use them.
Again this is just an unnecessary step in my opinion.
The best control of most flow loops is to not try and control it - let it flow - with as little restrictions as possible - reducing your leak points - size your overflow larger than your pump, and you will not have to worry about it.

 

[pat]

so what would be a good size overflow for like a rio 2100???? thats what i gots and im trying to get everything more or less straight in my head before i go experimenting and making a mess....lol. lets say that the sump would be 10 gallons......and then again for 15 gallons.....and then for 20.......is there a difference in the sump size to what everything is capable of handling, or just more margin for error, or what?

 

[pat]

oh yeah, one other thing to add to the equation.....if i was using 1/2 inch pvc on the return with 4 ft vertical, then what sice pvc would i need for the line from the overflow?

 

[broomer5]

Pat,
I have a Rio 2100 on my 55 with 3 feet head.
With yours of 4 feet, you should expect somewhere around 350 - 360 GPH flow up to your tank. I also have 1/2" PVC on my return, with 1/2" poly tubing to my spray fitting. My overflow has a 1" PVC fitting to a 1" flex hose down to my sump/wet/dry, much more than necessary, but I have never even come close to overrunning my overflow's capacity. You may be able to get by using 3/4" from your overflow to your sump, but for the cost difference why try it ?
1/2 going up
1 coming down
you'll be good to go using that 2100
Oh yeah - the size sump you use will depend on the size of your display tank to some degree. Not so much under normal operations, but at power failure you will have some water drain back down from both your return line ( until the siphon is broken ) and whatever water is still in the overflow/hose. Looks like you have a 55 gallon reef - your 2100 at 4' will give you say 350 gph / 55 = 6.7 turns per hour.
My sump holds total of about 12 gallons but I run it half full under normal operations.
If you have room for a 15 gallon tall tank for sump, that would make a nice set up.
10 might be a little tight.
HTH
Brian

 

[pat]

NICE!!!! so just go for a overflow that exceeds 360 gph and everything should be good, correct???? thank god its the weekend