Sump/Refuge return flowrate help plz

[smt91278]

Im researching sump ideas and have come across some really good threads on DIY's. Because my tank has no built-in overflows, Ill have to buy a hang-on overflow box. I planned on building a sump on one side (skimmer) and a refuge on the other side with a return pump in the middle. Of course Ill be installing baffles to bring it all together.
I'm alittle concerned with the return flow to my DT. the hang-on overflow im looking at claims to siphon 800 gph from the DT. Once the water reaches the sump/fuge, goes through the baffles, skimmer, and reaches the return pump chamber how many gph should my return pump push? i planned on putting the sump/fuge directly under the DT, inside my stand. im just terrified of coming home from work one day to see my living room flooded.

 

[natclanwy]

#1 recomendation if you want the most reliable HOB overflow be sure you get a U-tube style overflow and steer clear of the cpr style (formed acrylic) overflows.
For a pump you want to chose one that is rated for 70-100% of the rating for the overflow after headloss is subtracted. Going too small will cause a flood by allowing airbubbles to accumulate in the U-tube stopping the syphon, going too big using a valve to restrict or divert the flow iis a waste and also generates more heat than using the correct size pump.
A couple of good options for pumps would be a Mag 9.5 or Quiet One 4000.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Definitely use a U tube style OF box. Match your return pump to the flow rate of the OF, AFTER you allow for head loss as stated. Probably a mag 9.5 would be in order. Install a BV after the return pump. There is nothing wrong at all with throttling back a return pump, or diverting part back through the sump/fuge.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2789960
#1 recomendation if you want the most reliable HOB overflow be sure you get a U-tube style overflow and steer clear of the cpr style (formed acrylic) overflows.
For a pump you want to chose one that is rated for 70-100% of the rating for the overflow after headloss is subtracted. Going too small will cause a flood by allowing airbubbles to accumulate in the U-tube stopping the syphon, going too big using a valve to restrict or divert the flow iis a waste and also generates more heat than using the correct size pump.
A couple of good options for pumps would be a Mag 9.5 or Quiet One 4000.
How do you subtract for headloss? How is that figured out?
Quiet one makes a 4000 and a 4000HH. im assuming from the gph is pushes you mean just the quiet one 4000???

 

[natclanwy]

Headloss is calculated by measuring the verticle feet of plumbing between the pump and the highest fitting in your plumbing. You also will have some headloss from each elbow and in the horizontal piping but it really doesn't amount to much unless you are using more than 5 or 6 elbows or have more than a few feet of horizontal piping. Most ball valves have a fairly significant headloss probably equal to 1ft of verticle piping. The inside diameter of the plumbing plays a role also, larger pipe less resistance. The critical part though is the verticle feet of pipe if you can get that the rest will only amount to 20-50 gph for most installations.
Then look at the specs for the pump and it should show you a chart for headloss.
There is nothing wrong with valving a pump back or diverting the flow it won't hurt the pump but running a larger pump in general will generate more heat also restricting the output of the pump will cause the pump to generate more heat not much of an issue if you are running a chiller that can handle it but if you don't have a chiller every little bit helps.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I do not run a chiller, have 2 submerged return pumps, run 500 watts of MH with 156 watts T5 actinics, an in sump skimmer, two koralia 4 and a modded maxijet 1200, on a 135 in a 14X20 room.and never have any heat issues. My point is the added heat is so minimal it's negligible.

 

[smt91278]

this is an estimate of course. it looks like it will be around 10ft of plumbing with about 5-6 elbow and atleast one ball valve. the ball valve will be in-line from the overflow to the refuge though. i may add another from the return pump going back to my DT. the quiet one 4000 advertises 1017 gph return and my overflow advertises 800 gph. by estimations ill have about 100gph difference, on the return pump end,once u subtract headloss. that should be ok right?

 

[natclanwy]

How much of that 10ft is verticle between the pump and the DT? The plumbing on the drain won't matter for the headloss calculation just the return pump plumbing. A typical installation will have 3 elbows and 4ft of verticle pipe which would make for the following aproximate flow rates:
Quiet one 4000: 672gph
Quiet One 4000HH: 816gph
Quiet One 5000: 860gph
Mag 7: 452gph
Mag 9: 745gph
Mag 12: 942gph

 

[smt91278]

ok, ive thought alittle more about how im going to plumb my sump and fuge, in my stand. it's about 6 feet from the floor to the top of my DT. (roughly) i would like to run a straight vertical pipe from the return pump to the top of the tank, where of course it will elbow. at this elbow the water will dump back into my DT. i don't know what i was thinking when i said 10 feet.

 

[smt91278]

my return plumbing will include 2 45 degree elbows to clear the back of stand(plumbing coming out of return pump tank). and 2 90's coming over the top of my DT. this of course doesn't include overflow plumbing to my in-stand tanks.

 

[nate213]

If you are going to get the 4000, I have one that is 2-months old and I need to upgrade. I would be willing to sell it, if you are interested. My overflow is rated at 1100gph and the pump is a little weak. I think Im going to buy a 6000.

 

[natclanwy]

Here are the corrected flow rates for 6ft of verticle pipe with 2-45's and 3-90's (you will need a 90 on the pump).
Using 1" ID pipe
Quiet one 4000: 517gph
Quiet One 4000HH: 733gph
Quiet One 5000: 670gph
Mag 7: 353gph
Mag 9: 628gph
Mag 12: 792gph
Using 1.25" pipe
Quiet one 4000: 570gph
Quiet One 4000HH: 784gph
Quiet One 5000: 775gph
Mag 7: 367gph
Mag 9: 681gph
Mag 12: 894gph
Keep in mind all of these calculations are approximate but they should be in the ballpark.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2791342
Here are the corrected flow rates for 6ft of verticle pipe with 2-45's and 3-90's (you will need a 90 on the pump).
Using 1" ID pipe
Quiet one 4000: 517gph
Quiet One 4000HH: 733gph
Quiet One 5000: 670gph
Mag 7: 353gph
Mag 9: 628gph
Mag 12: 792gph
Using 1.25" pipe
Quiet one 4000: 570gph
Quiet One 4000HH: 784gph
Quiet One 5000: 775gph
Mag 7: 367gph
Mag 9: 681gph
Mag 12: 894gph
Keep in mind all of these calculations are approximate but they should be in the ballpark.
if you don't mind me asking where did you get these calculations? I planned on using 1.25" PVC on all the plumbing. (better flow). the overflow im looking at claims to drain up too 800 gph. with that said a quiet one 4000 is the abolute smallest pump i can use to establish 70-100% return flow right??

 

[natclanwy]

I used headloss calculator google headloss calculator and you will find a few.
Yes it would be the absolute smallest pump you could use. If you are planning on using an overflow with dual U-tubes the Mag 9 would be the smallest pump I would use, dual tubes seem to be more sensitive to low flow rates than single tube models.

 

[smt91278]

the overflow im looking at comes from a brand called Eshopps. it has a single1" bulkhead. i can't tell if the picture is a high end model or the model im interested in, but it shows a dual u-tube as well. its recommended for tanks up to 125gal and pumps "up to 800 gph".

 

[wattsupdoc]

There will be no need for a 90 on the pump.

the overflow im looking at comes from a brand called Eshopps. it has a single1" bulkhead. i can't tell if the picture is a high end model or the model im interested in, but it shows a dual u-tube as well. its recommended for tanks up to 125gal and pumps "up to 800 gph".

 

[natclanwy]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2792049
There will be no need for a 90 on the pump.

Yep your right thought my mag had a 90 on it just went and checked and it doesn't. Doesn't change the flowrate much though only about 10gph on all of the figures.

 

[johnnyd]

question for a 120g with eshopps 800 or 1000g per hour what return pump would a get. i want to set up a basic sump but not sure how the plumbing goes. if the sump goes in the stand the shoulf onyl be a 90 coming from the sump a straight pipe to the top of the tank and another 90 draining into the tank right? i want to set up the basic plumbing

 

[natclanwy]

Originally Posted by johnnyd
http:///forum/post/2798916
question for a 120g with eshopps 800 or 1000g per hour what return pump would a get. i want to set up a basic sump but not sure how the plumbing goes. if the sump goes in the stand the shoulf onyl be a 90 coming from the sump a straight pipe to the top of the tank and another 90 draining into the tank right? i want to set up the basic plumbing
How many feet are between where your sump would be located to the top edge of your tank?

 

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2799813
How many feet are between where your sump would be located to the top edge of your tank?
dotn have the stuff yet but i think the stand is around 3 feet and the tank height will be 24" or 22" high and the sump will go into the stand under the tank. does the overflow GPH have to match the pump GPH?