Sump/Refuge return flowrate help plz

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by johnnyd
http:///forum/post/2800287
dotn have the stuff yet but i think the stand is around 3 feet and the tank height will be 24" or 22" high and the sump will go into the stand under the tank. does the overflow GPH have to match the pump GPH?
your overflow and return gph's should be as close to matching as possible. many people on the forum say if you are between 70-100% matched your in good shape.

but the more elbows you have and the more return feet from pump to your tank will negative effect your flowrate, so keep that in mind.

 

[natclanwy]

You want to select a pump that is rated between 70% and 100% of the overflows rated capacity after headloss is subtracted, so with your setup you will have somewhere around 5.3 ft of headloss so you will need to look at the pump curve chart to determine what the flowrate will be on your system. Here are a couple of pumps to get you started:
Flow rates for these pumps after headloss is subtracted:
If you use a 1000gph overflow using 1.25" pipe for your return plumbing.
Mag 12: 965gph
Quietone 6000: 968gph
If you use an 800gph overflow using 1.25" pipe for your return plumbing
Mag 9.5: 737

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2800529
You want to select a pump that is rated between 70% and 100% of the overflows rated capacity after headloss is subtracted, so with your setup you will have somewhere around 5.3 ft of headloss so you will need to look at the pump curve chart to determine what the flowrate will be on your system. Here are a couple of pumps to get you started:
Flow rates for these pumps after headloss is subtracted:
If you use a 1000gph overflow using 1.25" pipe for your return plumbing.
Mag 12: 965gph
Quietone 6000: 968gph
If you use an 800gph overflow using 1.25" pipe for your return plumbing
Mag 9.5: 737
where can i find this "pump flow chart" that you'r referring too????

 

[natclanwy]

The chart is listed with the specifications of the pump, the manufacturer should have the chart and specs on their website if the vendor does not.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2800739
The chart is listed with the specifications of the pump, the manufacturer should have the chart and specs on their website if the vendor does not.

ok, this whole headloss thing has got me really confused. Im looking at about 4.5 feet of return pvc, with 2-45 degree and 2-90 degree elbows. running 1" pvc. the pumps im looking at are quietone 4000 (10ft max head), and mag drive 9.5 (14ft max head). surely 4.5ft is less than both these "max head" ratings. do these 4 elbows i plan on using subtract 200gph from my pumps return flowrate??? the quietone 4000 has a flowrate of 1017gph, and the mag drive 9.5 has 950gph flowrate. both these pumps should be plenty for a overflow both pulling 800 gph, right?

 

[natclanwy]

Those flow rates are with zero feet of head pressure such as when used in a closed loop system or as a powerhead. The maximum head pressure rating is the maximum height that the pump will push water to before it stops pumping completely. The distance that your pump has to push the water up to the tank is what we use to calculate head pressure, you will have 4.5ft of head pressure plus the friction caused by the pipe, any elbows, 45's, valves, unions ect.. for a total of 5.5 ft of head pressure. The 1" pipe accounts for about 1.2ft of pressure and the elbows are cause a total of 0.3ft of head pressure. You could decrease the head pressure by 0.6ft just by increasing your pipe to 1.25 for a total of 4.9ft of head pressure.
Here is the chart for a quietone 4000 and if you take your head pressure and compare it to the chart you will find what the output of your pump will be. According to the chart with 5.5ft of head pressure your output will be about 640gph and my headloss calculator says 638gph and with 4.9ft of head pressure it looks to be about 680gph and my headloss calculator says 690gph.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2800849
Those flow rates are with zero feet of head pressure such as when used in a closed loop system or as a powerhead. The maximum head pressure rating is the maximum height that the pump will push water to before it stops pumping completely. The distance that your pump has to push the water up to the tank is what we use to calculate head pressure, you will have 4.5ft of head pressure plus the friction caused by the pipe, any elbows, 45's, valves, unions ect.. for a total of 5.5 ft of head pressure. The 1" pipe accounts for about 1.2ft of pressure and the elbows are cause a total of 0.3ft of head pressure. You could decrease the head pressure by 0.6ft just by increasing your pipe to 1.25 for a total of 4.9ft of head pressure.
Here is the chart for a quietone 4000 and if you take your head pressure and compare it to the chart you will find what the output of your pump will be. According to the chart with 5.5ft of head pressure your output will be about 640gph and my headloss calculator says 638gph and with 4.9ft of head pressure it looks to be about 680gph and my headloss calculator says 690gph.
thanks for breaking that down for me. by those calculations a quiet one 4000 and either 1" or 1.25" pvc would keep me in that 70-100% matching range. ill probably install a ball valve on the way down to my sump, just in case the flow needs to be adjusted to match.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I just want to add here, that a U tube style OF box MUST have a rapid flow of water through it. I would recommend pushing this to it's maximum. This is because too slow of a flow through the u tube will allow bubbles to collect in the tube. Accumulating, and eventually breaking syphon. I recommend slightly exceeding the OF's rating AFTER head loss is calculated and utilizing a BV to "dial in" the flow.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2801443

I just want to add here, that a U tube style OF box MUST have a rapid flow of water through it. I would recommend pushing this to it's maximum. This is because too slow of a flow through the u tube will allow bubbles to collect in the tube. Accumulating, and eventually breaking syphon. I recommend slightly exceeding the OF's rating AFTER head loss is calculated and utilizing a BV to "dial in" the flow.

Here's a thought.....instead of using a hang-on overflow box, why can't u just fabricate PVC to siphon water over the rim of the tank and down to the sump??? As long as the PVC stays well below the water line, it would make sense to me that it would work. (AS LONG AS YOU CAN SCREEN THE END OF THE PVC, TO PREVENT LIVESTOCK LOSS) I know an overflow box helps with surface skimming, but with my water flow inside the tank (1600gph powerhead and 700gph from my return pump) surface water "dead spots" aren't really an issue. An overflow box works off of gravity to push water to the sump, as should regular PVC. Just not sure what you would use to "screen" the end of the PVC, inside the tank???

 

[natclanwy]

Here is the issue with using PVC to syphon water out of your tank, What happens when the power goes out? Either the PVC continues to siphon water out of your tank down to whatever level the end of your PVC is at overflowing your sump or you were thinking ahead and put a syphon break in which breaks the siphon causing your return pump to overflow the DT. Not to mention the near impossibility it would be to adjust the return flow rate to match the drain flow rate.
Also you are just asking for trouble by installing a ball valve on the drain and using it to regulate flow. If you want to regulate flow put a ball valve on the return line.

 

[smt91278]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2801574
Here is the issue with using PVC to syphon water out of your tank, What happens when the power goes out? Either the PVC continues to siphon water out of your tank down to whatever level the end of your PVC is at overflowing your sump or you were thinking ahead and put a syphon break in which breaks the siphon causing your return pump to overflow the DT. Not to mention the near impossibility it would be to adjust the return flow rate to match the drain flow rate.
Also you are just asking for trouble by installing a ball valve on the drain and using it to regulate flow. If you want to regulate flow put a ball valve on the return line.
I think it would be foolish to think anyone would run an overflow without having a battery operated back-up pump. I plan on having one for power outages. I surely don't want a pool in the middle of my living room.
I was thinking of putting a ball valve on my drain, just in case i had to do maintance to my sump, more than to regulate drain waterflow. I am going to put a ball valve on my return to match drain flow. What you are saying makes sense though. i can't imagine how you would match waterflow without knowing how much water is draining from the PVC. I was just brainstorming, the hobby is expensive enough as it is, as we all know. Just another reason why you can't skimp on your setup and expect good results.

 

[smt91278]

I'll have a 26gal sump, by the way. once i finally get all the details ironed out, how much water should i put in the sump??? I plan on putting a skimmer in the sump, which needs 8-10gal of submersion. My sump is 13" deep.

 

[natclanwy]

I do not own a battery operated pump for my system, I need to probably invest in a battery operated air pump someday but my tank is fine without power for a few hours usually plenty of time for me to get home and if needed I have a couple of 1000w inverters in my work truck that I can run my tank off of for a few hours until the power comes back on.
I don't know of any battery operated pumps that will operate in place of your return pump. You can set up a backup generator that automatically switches when the power goes out which would keep everything running, but this still doesn't address any issues such as when a rouge snail decides to check out the intake of your return pump, a clump of chaeto manages to make it through your baffles and clog your intake, pump failure, or if your backup generator runs out of fuel or doesn't start before you manage to make it home. I don't mean to harp but in my experience anything that can go wrong will go wrong so whatever you can do to prevent a catastrophe is money in the bank.
A ball valve on your drain for maintenance is fine I just wouldn't try to regulate the flow with it. There are plans for a DIY PVC overflow somewhere in the DIY section if you are needing some other options besides a prefabbed overflow box, or check out the EShopps overflows which are relatively inexpensive compared to other manufacturers.

 

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by natclanwy
http:///forum/post/2801611
I do not own a battery operated pump for my system, I need to probably invest in a battery operated air pump someday but my tank is fine without power for a few hours usually plenty of time for me to get home and if needed I have a couple of 1000w inverters in my work truck that I can run my tank off of for a few hours until the power comes back on.
I don't know of any battery operated pumps that will operate in place of your return pump. You can set up a backup generator that automatically switches when the power goes out which would keep everything running, but this still doesn't address any issues such as when a rouge snail decides to check out the intake of your return pump, a clump of chaeto manages to make it through your baffles and clog your intake, pump failure, or if your backup generator runs out of fuel or doesn't start before you manage to make it home. I don't mean to harp but in my experience anything that can go wrong will go wrong so whatever you can do to prevent a catastrophe is money in the bank.
A ball valve on your drain for maintenance is fine I just wouldn't try to regulate the flow with it. There are plans for a DIY PVC overflow somewhere in the DIY section if you are needing some other options besides a prefabbed overflow box, or check out the EShopps overflows which are relatively inexpensive compared to other manufacturers.
im prob not gonna get a sump because of the flooding that might happen, and all i wanted a sump for was to hide the heater and skimmer and have a return line underwater(HOB filters splash everywhere leaving massive salt) so i was thinking about the fluval x5 or a inline filter on drs.foster that has four chambers one which holds the heater and one is a uv chmaber, which is powered by a quite one 4000.

 

[natclanwy]

Originally Posted by johnnyd
http:///forum/post/2802070
im prob not gonna get a sump because of the flooding that might happen, and all i wanted a sump for was to hide the heater and skimmer and have a return line underwater(HOB filters splash everywhere leaving massive salt) so i was thinking about the fluval x5 or a inline filter on drs.foster that has four chambers one which holds the heater and one is a uv chmaber, which is powered by a quite one 4000.
It's a personal preference, but if set up correctly there is no more danger of flood from your sump than there is from your display tank. Setting up a sump is definitely not something you want to take shortcuts with, but the benefits far outweigh the risks when done correctly.

 

[wattsupdoc]

There are quite a few threads on here with DIY PVC OF's. They have been around for quite some time. Many use them and reportedly they work pretty well. You CAN and MANY DO use ball valves on the drains, however this would be with a built in OF, coast to coast, baffles whatever, but not a HOB or DIY PVC. It's a different concept that has been around for a long time. It works, and some use it flawlessly, but IMO a back up is beneficial, google "Herbie Style Drain". for more on these things. There is no point in trying to control the drain, let what the pump delivers be the control.
To roughly determine how much room to leave in a sump/fuge find the estimated backwash. I usually allow 2 in of the DT's height for backwash. To fing this then, HxWxL /.231=gallons
so plug in your measurements using 2 as the height. Now this is youir estimated backwash, leave at least enough room in the sump to allow for this. However, you dont have to just leave this amount. If youer backwash calculates to say 4.5 gallons, and your desired water level leaves 10 gallons, great!. It is recommended to install the sump fill it with the desired water level while running, then add a little under your estimated backwash. start up and let it circulate, adding more SW if needed to run properly. BUT don't add so much that shut down floods. Now when you have it operating just right, shut it down and be sure that it doesn't flood. If everything was done correctly, then you WONT FLOOD PERIOD.
Dont worry too much about very short (hour or less) power outages. You will usually be OK for quite a while without power. (couple hours) Unless you are very heavily loaded, or have some other scenarios that might be an issue, like exposure to heat/cold. For extended periods, you can use an inverter/battery set, a portable backup generator, or a standby generator. Either of these methods will get you through practically any emergency sceneario involving power outages.
im prob not gonna get a sump because of the flooding that might happen, and all i wanted a sump for was to hide the heater and skimmer and have a return line underwater(HOB filters splash everywhere leaving massive salt) so i was thinking about the fluval x5 or a inline filter on drs.foster that has four chambers one which holds the heater and one is a uv chmaber, which is powered by a quite one 4000.
johnyd, what is your point here? Why would you post basically suggesting to someone to utilize an inferior filtration? I spilled more water using my filstar canister filter than I have ever spilled using my sump/fuge.

 

[johnnyd]

johnyd, what is your point here? Why would you post basically suggesting to someone to utilize an inferior filtration? I spilled more water using my filstar canister filter than I have ever spilled using my sump/fuge.
i want to have a sump for storage but im not sure how to do the plumbing. so i was thinking of just going with a canister cause my hob are leaving salt creep everywhere. can i just use the clear plastic tubing for my drain pipe and return pipe? and how would a fit a pvc ball valve into the tubing?

 

[wattsupdoc]

You can use the larger diameter tubing, but you need a overflow and a return pump. You cant just start a syphon and let 'er rip.

do some research on how these work. we will get you there, just be patient and do some googling.

Really all the information you need is right here if you just do some digging around. I know the search doesn't work all that great, but there is sooooo much stuff on these things that you will surely dig up a ton of stuff.

Also, I'll be glad to help you along, start a new thread when your ready.

 

[johnnyd]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
http:///forum/post/2802424
You can use the larger diameter tubing, but you need a overflow and a return pump. You cant just start a syphon and let 'er rip.

do some research on how these work. we will get you there, just be patient and do some googling.

Really all the information you need is right here if you just do some digging around. I know the search doesn't work all that great, but there is sooooo much stuff on these things that you will surely dig up a ton of stuff.

Also, I'll be glad to help you along, start a new thread when your ready.

well im getting the tank soon and the overflow, sump, return pump, but i was thinking of buy a new tank (*****) that has a prebuilt overflow and i think those come predrilled?

 

[wattsupdoc]

Yes, these are called reef ready.

And the way to go.