Texas man cleared of shooting neighbor's robber

sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"
Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"
Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?
Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."
Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"
Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."
Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."
Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."
Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."
Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?
Horn: "No, no, no."
Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."
Yelling is heard.
Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."
Poor defenseless old man thought he was in danger

Just to clarify my position on this, If it were his home being robbed, or even if the neighbors had asked him to look after their place, it wouldn't bother me. He didn't even know these neighbors, right next door. Don't tell me that he was protecting his neighbors property. If you don't bother to know people that live right next door to you, and you don't know if they are a number up or down from you, then you can't be that much of a "community oriented" person. These two were criminals and deserved to be punished. They didn't need to die though. Nowhere in the tape did I hear him ask for their green card, nor any gangs that they may have been associated with. He didn't know their history at all. He saw two black guys at the neighbors house and saw them leave with "loot". He took it upon himself to kill these two after repeatedly being told not to leave his house. It may be Texas law to protect yourself, but not like this. Yet he was cleared of charges.
But the legislator who authored the "castle doctrine" bill told the Chronicle it was never intended to apply to a neighbor's property, to prompt a "'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," said Republican Sen. Jeff Wentworth. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Back in the thread aways I posted the Texas statute dealing with the right to use deadly force to protect a neighbor's property. That is a seperate statute from the castle doctrine. The castle doctrine varies a little from state to state but it basically says if you feel threatened while on your own property you don't have to retreat, you can use deadly force to defend yourself.
Because Horn was standing on his own property when the one guy rushed at him he was not obligated to try to run back in his house on anything, he had the right to shoot. The other statute gave him the right to use deadly force to stop the robbery.
I am sure the guy who wrote the Castle Doctrine law for Texas didn't intend it to be used like this.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2675079
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?"
Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the --- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?"
Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody?
Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now."
Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?"
Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..."
Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on."
Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..."
Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..."
Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now."
Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you?
Horn: "No, no, no."
Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else."
Yelling is heard.
Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."
Poor defenseless old man thought he was in danger

Just to clarify my position on this, If it were his home being robbed, or even if the neighbors had asked him to look after their place, it wouldn't bother me. He didn't even know these neighbors, right next door. Don't tell me that he was protecting his neighbors property. If you don't bother to know people that live right next door to you, and you don't know if they are a number up or down from you, then you can't be that much of a "community oriented" person. These two were criminals and deserved to be punished. They didn't need to die though. Nowhere in the tape did I hear him ask for their green card, nor any gangs that they may have been associated with. He didn't know their history at all. He saw two black guys at the neighbors house and saw them leave with "loot". He took it upon himself to kill these two after repeatedly being told not to leave his house. It may be Texas law to protect yourself, but not like this. Yet he was cleared of charges.
THANK YOU for posting this... where was he in any danger? he wanted to shoot somebody period...
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2675215
THANK YOU for posting this... where was he in any danger? he wanted to shoot somebody period...
According to the law he needs to feel threatened. Words matter here. Whether Horn wanted to shoot someone or not is actually irrelevent. Once the guy came at him that was a threatening situation. Think about it. You tell the guy freeze or you're dead and point a gun at him but he still comes at you. Thats a threat.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I can't say that "knowing" the neighbors is relevant when it comes deciding whether or not to intercede in a crime. So, if he doesn't know the neighbors, then he shouldn't intercede?
I think he saw a crime happening, and took it upon himself to intercede. He called 911 to get them to intercede but at the point that the criminals were in the process of getting away, he took it upon himself to prevent that.
There was no mention by him that they were black, or illegal, or Spanish so I don't see any bigotry connection. If 2 white guys were the burglars, I think it would have gone down exactly the same way. Horn's interest was stop a crime in progress, not let the culprits get away.
There was a burglary recently where I live. The criminals knocked on the door, no one answered. They thought the house was empty so proceeded to bust open the door. A 14 year old was home, however, and didn't answer the door (THANK GOD). Using her cell, she called her mom, then hid in the bathtub as the criminals began to "do their thing". The burglars were after electronic equipment and were confronted by the child's mom (who had rushed home) and the police as they were exiting the property with a flat-screen.
In another case recently in my town, there was someone home during a burglary who was not as fortunate as the 14 year old. A disabled woman in a wheel chair was home. She was beaten badly by the criminals who then ransacked her home.
The criminals in the 2nd case are still at large....and you can bet they continue with their highly lucrative, yet nefarious, practices. If any one here thinks that burglars are only marginally criminal because they are just thieves, think again. These same people are involved in theft, trafficking, and even murder.
The point is, you never know what really is happening when a property crime occurs. If that girl had been discovered, she may well have been killed. Someone on the outside who is brave enough to intercede should not be chastised, but commended. The law backed him, yet decent people here bemoan the great "tragedy"
that two criminals were killed.
There are many communities that have reached the point of being terrorized by robbers, home invasions, carjacking, burglaries, etc., etc. The police many times are ineffective in these cases, unless they do arrive in time to catch the criminals in the act. Robbers know this, so the situation, in many cities gets worse and worse. People are going to have to be proactive with this, and not just sit back and take it. I'm not saying that people need to lock and load, or run out and get shotguns, but sitting back and thinking that this isn't important enough, or that you need to take up the cause for criminals is naive at best.
Wait until it happens to you.
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2675256
According to the law he needs to feel threatened. Words matter here. Whether Horn wanted to shoot someone or not is actually irrelevent. Once the guy came at him that was a threatening situation. Think about it. You tell the guy freeze or you're dead and point a gun at him but he still comes at you. Thats a threat.
again if they were "coming at him" why were they shot in the back?
 
V

vinnyraptor

Guest
Originally Posted by VinnyRaptor
http:///forum/post/2675399
again if they were "coming at him" why were they shot in the back?
it's clear he said freeze and then fired. what is highly more likely is that he said freeze they tried to run and he shot them in the back. not he said freeze, they charged BACKWARDS or something and got hit in the back while coming forward???? thats as bad as the JFK explaination, lol....
 
reefreak29

reefreak29

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2675347
I can't say that "knowing" the neighbors is relevant when it comes deciding whether or not to intercede in a crime. So, if he doesn't know the neighbors, then he shouldn't intercede?
I think he saw a crime happening, and took it upon himself to intercede. He called 911 to get them to intercede but at the point that the criminals were in the process of getting away, he took it upon himself to prevent that.
There was no mention by him that they were black, or illegal, or Spanish so I don't see any bigotry connection. If 2 white guys were the burglars, I think it would have gone down exactly the same way. Horn's interest was stop a crime in progress, not let the culprits get away.
There was a burglary recently where I live. The criminals knocked on the door, no one answered. They thought the house was empty so proceeded to bust open the door. A 14 year old was home, however, and didn't answer the door (THANK GOD). Using her cell, she called her mom, then hid in the bathtub as the criminals began to "do their thing". The burglars were after electronic equipment and were confronted by the child's mom (who had rushed home) and the police as they were exiting the property with a flat-screen.
In another case recently in my town, there was someone home during a burglary who was not as fortunate as the 14 year old. A disabled woman in a wheel chair was home. She was beaten badly by the criminals who then ransacked her home.
The criminals in the 2nd case are still at large....and you can bet they continue with their highly lucrative, yet nefarious, practices. If any one here thinks that burglars are only marginally criminal because they are just thieves, think again. These same people are involved in theft, trafficking, and even murder.
The point is, you never know what really is happening when a property crime occurs. If that girl had been discovered, she may well have been killed. Someone on the outside who is brave enough to intercede should not be chastised, but commended. The law backed him, yet decent people here bemoan the great "tragedy"
that two criminals were killed.
There are many communities that have reached the point of being terrorized by robbers, home invasions, carjacking, burglaries, etc., etc. The police many times are ineffective in these cases, unless they do arrive in time to catch the criminals in the act. Robbers know this, so the situation, in many cities gets worse and worse. People are going to have to be proactive with this, and not just sit back and take it. I'm not saying that people need to lock and load, or run out and get shotguns, but sitting back and thinking that this isn't important enough, or that you need to take up the cause for criminals is naive at best.
Wait until it happens to you.
it has happened to us and i didnt start killing everyone unnessisarily
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
He doesn't even say "freeze". He shouts, "Boom! your dead!" then shoots. It is on the tape and in print.
I brought up the fact that he did not know these neighbors because it has been argued on here that he was just defending his neighbors property. I brought up the fact that these men were black (he does say it on the tape) because that has been another point argued on here. People are arguing that they are in the country illegally anyway so somehow that makes it alright to shoot them.
I am not defending the criminals here. I am trying to stick to the facts. He says that he is going to shoot them before they even came out of the house. He is very adamant about it. He is told not to go outside repeatedly. Horn points out to the dispatcher that the laws had just changed and that it is not illegal to defend himself. There was nothing to defend though. The officers were already there, the unmarked car and the uniformed officers showed up moments later, when he shot the men in the back. He put himself in danger and the lives of the officers on the scene. I agree that crimes are committed and the perpetrators get away. That wasn't the case here. The officers were there. Horn took the law into his own hands rather than letting the police handle it.
I feel for victims in other situations, please don't think otherwise. If this situation were different then I wouldn't feel that Horn was wrong for shooting them. He fully intended to shoot them and told the dispatcher repeatedly that he was going to do so. The story may get skewed as it is told but the 911 tape doesn't lie.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Everyone seems to be forgetting he shot the criminals on his own property.
He saw a crime being committed and he stopped it.
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2675436
Everyone seems to be forgetting he shot the criminals on his own property.
He saw a crime being committed and he stopped it.
This seems to be quite an escalation - death to the trespassers! It is obvious from the 911 tape that he didn't care where they were - he was going to do some "long pork" hunting, and no amount of common sense or decency was going to stop him. I can't spend too much time today on this response, I have to get to a stoning. Got to deal with those plagiarists.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I think our time would be much better spent in coming up with ways to address rising crime, protecting ourselves, our communities, and lawful folks, rather than belaboring and bemoaning the injustice of what happened to these 2 criminals.
 
tangman99

tangman99

Active Member
Not being scared on the phone means nothing. Going out when told not to means nothing as that was his right to do so. He could have been unafraid all the way up to the point when he was rushed and then became in fear of his life. Justified from that point on.
 
darthtang aw

darthtang aw

Active Member
Everyone keeps bringing up that the dispatcher said stay in the house. If you call the police while someone is breaking in your home, they tell you to stay in the room you are in............You can't use what the dispatcher said as the reason against the shooting. I would be calm as he double hockey sticks when I call the cops to tell them someone has broken into my house, I would also be calm when I confront them down the barrel of a .357....I would no longer be calm if the ran towards me in my general direction, even if their intent was to go out the door that was in my line of sight......
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2675461
This seems to be quite an escalation - death to the trespassers! ...
At the point where they advance at ya while you are holding a shotgun and telling them to stop from commiting the crime you just interupted; Ya. Death to the "trespassers".
They were shot on his property. Someone please attempt to explain that.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Just to point out that the 911 dispatchers telling him not to go out was for his safety and the safety of officers, not for the safety of the criminals.....just thought I'd point that out. lol
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2675412
He doesn't even say "freeze". He shouts, "Boom! your dead!" then shoots. It is on the tape and in print.
.
I saw the article that says he said "boom you're dead" but in later stories the transcript is quoted as saying "move and you're dead". Listen to that part of the tape and pay attention to the span of time between him saying that and the first shot. It sounds to me like he says "move, your dead" and about 2 seconds after he says dead the first shot can be heard. Why would he say boom your dead and then wait to pull the trigger?
 
geridoc

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2675623
At the point where they advance at ya while you are holding a shotgun and telling them to stop from commiting the crime you just interupted; Ya. Death to the "trespassers".
They were shot on his property. Someone please attempt to explain that.
Easy to explain - as I said before, he wanted to hunt, and death to trespassers was his excuse. Also, as I said before, whatever the Texas law is, fine, that is the law. If there was no reason under law to indict him, then that is that. But any unnecessary death is, in my view, immoral, and the deaths of these two people was unnecessary. Being able to do something like confronting burglars, and actually doing so are two different things. Horn engineered his own peril, then fired under peril. It was completely unnecessary.
 
stdreb27

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2675907
Easy to explain - as I said before, he wanted to hunt, and death to trespassers was his excuse. Also, as I said before, whatever the Texas law is, fine, that is the law. If there was no reason under law to indict him, then that is that. But any unnecessary death is, in my view, immoral, and the deaths of these two people was unnecessary. Being able to do something like confronting burglars, and actually doing so are two different things. Horn engineered his own peril, then fired under peril. It was completely unnecessary.
So you are telling me that you wouldn't have tried to stop them at all? Nothing? You would have just let your neighbor get robbed? I don't understand this at all. Say they stopped put their bags of loot down. And waited for the cops. You still would have just not done anything?
 
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