1journeyman
Active Member
For those of you siting statistics of minorities in Texas prisons and crime rates in Texas, have any of you bothered to look at how many of those criminals are here illegally?
Texas man cleared of shooting neighbor's robber
- Thread starter hydrodamoper
- Start date
reefreak29
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2674251
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
Ah, but when facing death he didn't even bother to ask forgiveness now did he? He looked at the victims daughter and said he had nothing to say.
The Bible teaches forgiveness, but also teaches personal responsibility and consequences for sin.
http:///forum/post/2674251
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
Ah, but when facing death he didn't even bother to ask forgiveness now did he? He looked at the victims daughter and said he had nothing to say.
The Bible teaches forgiveness, but also teaches personal responsibility and consequences for sin.
To me, what is frightening is that so many people run to the defense of criminals these days. I don't understand it. To me this is so dangerous.
I don't advocate for vigilante activities, but when a criminal proceeds to break the law, breaking into a family's home, then they face the risks involved with their decision to do such a thing. They were already law breakers by being in this country illegally. You can bet that this break in was not their first offense.
The man who shot these individuals did not break the law. The individuals who broke in to a private residence with the intent to perform criminal activities broke the law.
I'm not saying that such events should not be investigated. They certainly should, each and every one. A grand jury was formed and they decided that there was no wrong doing. So why on earth are people here arguing and advocating for the rights of criminals?
In my view, we need to stop marching for the rights of criminals. March to the tune of what is right and support those who are law abiding citizens who find themselves in situations that are created by criminals. Don't think that Mr. Horn is unaffected by this. This is something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
I wonder how we got to the point where people embrace so wholeheartedly the rights of criminals? What about the victims in this case....?
I don't advocate for vigilante activities, but when a criminal proceeds to break the law, breaking into a family's home, then they face the risks involved with their decision to do such a thing. They were already law breakers by being in this country illegally. You can bet that this break in was not their first offense.
The man who shot these individuals did not break the law. The individuals who broke in to a private residence with the intent to perform criminal activities broke the law.
I'm not saying that such events should not be investigated. They certainly should, each and every one. A grand jury was formed and they decided that there was no wrong doing. So why on earth are people here arguing and advocating for the rights of criminals?
In my view, we need to stop marching for the rights of criminals. March to the tune of what is right and support those who are law abiding citizens who find themselves in situations that are created by criminals. Don't think that Mr. Horn is unaffected by this. This is something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
I wonder how we got to the point where people embrace so wholeheartedly the rights of criminals? What about the victims in this case....?
oscardeuce
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2674162
For those of you siting statistics of minorities in Texas prisons and crime rates in Texas, have any of you bothered to look at how many of those criminals are here illegally?
Xenophobe!
Racist!
http:///forum/post/2674162
For those of you siting statistics of minorities in Texas prisons and crime rates in Texas, have any of you bothered to look at how many of those criminals are here illegally?
Xenophobe!
Racist!
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2674314
To me, what is frightening is that so many people run to the defense of criminals these days. I don't understand it. To me this is so dangerous.
I don't advocate for vigilante activities, but when a criminal proceeds to break the law, breaking into a family's home, then they face the risks involved with their decision to do such a thing. They were already law breakers by being in this country illegally. You can bet that this break in was not their first offense.
The man who shot these individuals did not break the law. The individuals who broke in to a private residence with the intent to perform criminal activities broke the law.
I'm not saying that such events should not be investigated. They certainly should, each and every one. A grand jury was formed and they decided that there was no wrong doing. So why on earth are people here arguing and advocating for the rights of criminals?
In my view, we need to stop marching for the rights of criminals. March to the tune of what is right and support those who are law abiding citizens who find themselves in situations that are created by criminals. Don't think that Mr. Horn is unaffected by this. This is something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
I wonder how we got to the point where people embrace so wholeheartedly the rights of criminals? What about the victims in this case....?
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
http:///forum/post/2674314
To me, what is frightening is that so many people run to the defense of criminals these days. I don't understand it. To me this is so dangerous.
I don't advocate for vigilante activities, but when a criminal proceeds to break the law, breaking into a family's home, then they face the risks involved with their decision to do such a thing. They were already law breakers by being in this country illegally. You can bet that this break in was not their first offense.
The man who shot these individuals did not break the law. The individuals who broke in to a private residence with the intent to perform criminal activities broke the law.
I'm not saying that such events should not be investigated. They certainly should, each and every one. A grand jury was formed and they decided that there was no wrong doing. So why on earth are people here arguing and advocating for the rights of criminals?
In my view, we need to stop marching for the rights of criminals. March to the tune of what is right and support those who are law abiding citizens who find themselves in situations that are created by criminals. Don't think that Mr. Horn is unaffected by this. This is something that he will have to live with for the rest of his life.
I wonder how we got to the point where people embrace so wholeheartedly the rights of criminals? What about the victims in this case....?
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
But that wasn't the kid's fault. Whoever snitched him out was more to blame and of course our facist system of oppression
I seriously doubt there has been a case of a minor put to death that didn't deserve it. There is always so much media attention and a pretty extensive investigation to make the case for it there arent many stones left unturned.
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
But that wasn't the kid's fault. Whoever snitched him out was more to blame and of course our facist system of oppression
I seriously doubt there has been a case of a minor put to death that didn't deserve it. There is always so much media attention and a pretty extensive investigation to make the case for it there arent many stones left unturned.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2674251
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
And had you been caught stealing and rushed at someone with a gun you likely would have been shot dead. You wouldn't deserve to be dead for stealing, you would have deserved to be dead for being stupid enough to rush the guy with the gun.
http:///forum/post/2674251
ARE YOU SAYING THAT PEOPLE CANNOT CHANGE, I KNOW YOUR STAND AND KNOWLEDGE ABOUT CHRIST AND THE BIBLE, SURELY YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE AN OPERTUNITY TO CHANGE AND have the chance to ask for forgiveness , when I was 16 I ran away from home and was stealing to support my drug habit. I landed in jail at 18 became a christian there after been sober for 11 years from drugs own a 500000 dollar home have a beautiful wife and 2 kids. also have a government job. everyone diserves a second chance. to be killed for stealing is still extreem
And had you been caught stealing and rushed at someone with a gun you likely would have been shot dead. You wouldn't deserve to be dead for stealing, you would have deserved to be dead for being stupid enough to rush the guy with the gun.
reefreak29
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2674381
And had you been caught stealing and rushed at someone with a gun you likely would have been shot dead. You wouldn't deserve to be dead for stealing, you would have deserved to be dead for being stupid enough to rush the guy with the gun.
i still dont understand why these guys would rush at him , I dont even know if I believe that
http:///forum/post/2674381
And had you been caught stealing and rushed at someone with a gun you likely would have been shot dead. You wouldn't deserve to be dead for stealing, you would have deserved to be dead for being stupid enough to rush the guy with the gun.
i still dont understand why these guys would rush at him , I dont even know if I believe that
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2674368
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
Morally someone doesn't have the right to protect their neighbor's belongings? In my world they do. If more people would look out for each other we wouldn't have these high crime rates. If those causing the problems get the raw end of the deal so be it.
http:///forum/post/2674368
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
Morally someone doesn't have the right to protect their neighbor's belongings? In my world they do. If more people would look out for each other we wouldn't have these high crime rates. If those causing the problems get the raw end of the deal so be it.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2674383
i still dont understand why these guys would rush at him , I dont even know if I believe that
The cop on the scene as it happened says he did.
http:///forum/post/2674383
i still dont understand why these guys would rush at him , I dont even know if I believe that
The cop on the scene as it happened says he did.
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2674399
Morally someone doesn't have the right to protect their neighbor's belongings? In my world they do. If more people would look out for each other we wouldn't have these high crime rates. If those causing the problems get the raw end of the deal so be it.
Of course a person has the right, indeed, the obligation, to protect the belongings of others. And Horn had already exercised that obligation - he called the police, who told him what to do, and he ignored them. That is what places his killing the thieves into a gray area. The police were already on the scene, but Horn seems to have been determined to stop these guys himself, placing the police themselves in jeopardy (the cop had to duck). Suppose one of Horn's shots had killed one of the responding police officers. Believe, me, he would have been indicted and, in Texas, on his way to "ole sparky" in no time.
What I object to is this attitude that the burglars got what they deserved - they didn't. They deserved prison, and the police were on site to start them on their way to the legal retribution that they did deserve. Horn short circuited that.
http:///forum/post/2674399
Morally someone doesn't have the right to protect their neighbor's belongings? In my world they do. If more people would look out for each other we wouldn't have these high crime rates. If those causing the problems get the raw end of the deal so be it.
Of course a person has the right, indeed, the obligation, to protect the belongings of others. And Horn had already exercised that obligation - he called the police, who told him what to do, and he ignored them. That is what places his killing the thieves into a gray area. The police were already on the scene, but Horn seems to have been determined to stop these guys himself, placing the police themselves in jeopardy (the cop had to duck). Suppose one of Horn's shots had killed one of the responding police officers. Believe, me, he would have been indicted and, in Texas, on his way to "ole sparky" in no time.
What I object to is this attitude that the burglars got what they deserved - they didn't. They deserved prison, and the police were on site to start them on their way to the legal retribution that they did deserve. Horn short circuited that.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2674420
Of course a person has the right, indeed, the obligation, to protect the belongings of others. And Horn had already exercised that obligation - he called the police, who told him what to do, and he ignored them. That is what places his killing the thieves into a gray area. The police were already on the scene, but Horn seems to have been determined to stop these guys himself, placing the police themselves in jeopardy (the cop had to duck). Suppose one of Horn's shots had killed one of the responding police officers. Believe, me, he would have been indicted and, in Texas, on his way to "ole sparky" in no time.
What I object to is this attitude that the burglars got what they deserved - they didn't. They deserved prison, and the police were on site to start them on their way to the legal retribution that they did deserve. Horn short circuited that.
Have you not been reading any of the accounts of this?
One plain Clothes cop showed up just as the incounter in the yard started. Neither Horn nor the criminals knew he was there. He had just stepped out of his unmarked car when the first shot happened.
One of the criminals rushed Horn, he got what he deserved. The second one didn't deserve to get shot but I sure as hell don't feel sorry for him. If you don't be a crook these things don't happen.
http:///forum/post/2674420
Of course a person has the right, indeed, the obligation, to protect the belongings of others. And Horn had already exercised that obligation - he called the police, who told him what to do, and he ignored them. That is what places his killing the thieves into a gray area. The police were already on the scene, but Horn seems to have been determined to stop these guys himself, placing the police themselves in jeopardy (the cop had to duck). Suppose one of Horn's shots had killed one of the responding police officers. Believe, me, he would have been indicted and, in Texas, on his way to "ole sparky" in no time.
What I object to is this attitude that the burglars got what they deserved - they didn't. They deserved prison, and the police were on site to start them on their way to the legal retribution that they did deserve. Horn short circuited that.
Have you not been reading any of the accounts of this?
One plain Clothes cop showed up just as the incounter in the yard started. Neither Horn nor the criminals knew he was there. He had just stepped out of his unmarked car when the first shot happened.
One of the criminals rushed Horn, he got what he deserved. The second one didn't deserve to get shot but I sure as hell don't feel sorry for him. If you don't be a crook these things don't happen.
T
tangofish
Guest
Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2674368
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
Im with you...
http:///forum/post/2674368
Beth: You keep talking about the "rights of criminals", as if they get excessive rights. In the case under discussion, one right that everyone has, the "inalienable right to life..." that is one of the cornerstones of our form of government (but, in some areas, not of our culture) was the right that was taken from these two crooks. They committed a criminal act, the punishment for which is some number of years in prison. Nowhere is the death penalty given for theft (in the west, at least). Their right to life was taken without due process, which is a right given to everyone by the constitution.
All of that said, this issue is truly in a gray area. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, but this guy put himself into a situation where he felt he had to do so, despite being told several times by the police dispatcher that he should stay in the house. Legally, under Texas law he was probably not guilty of committing a crime, but morally...?
Im with you...
geridoc
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2674445
Have you not been reading any of the accounts of this?
One plain Clothes cop showed up just as the incounter in the yard started. Neither Horn nor the criminals knew he was there. He had just stepped out of his unmarked car when the first shot happened.
One of the criminals rushed Horn, he got what he deserved. The second one didn't deserve to get shot but I sure as hell don't feel sorry for him. If you don't be a crook these things don't happen.
Of course I read the transcripts. It doesn't mater whether the cop just got there, or he had been there since 1956. He was there, just as the 911 operator said he would be, and was placed at risk by an out of control cowboy with a shotgun. As for the first guy charging Horn, somehow during his headlong charge he got shot IN THE SIDE. Must have been one of those famous sideways charges. None of us were there, so my interpretation could be wrong, as could yours, but my main point is that it was all so unnecessary, and two people are dead.
http:///forum/post/2674445
Have you not been reading any of the accounts of this?
One plain Clothes cop showed up just as the incounter in the yard started. Neither Horn nor the criminals knew he was there. He had just stepped out of his unmarked car when the first shot happened.
One of the criminals rushed Horn, he got what he deserved. The second one didn't deserve to get shot but I sure as hell don't feel sorry for him. If you don't be a crook these things don't happen.
Of course I read the transcripts. It doesn't mater whether the cop just got there, or he had been there since 1956. He was there, just as the 911 operator said he would be, and was placed at risk by an out of control cowboy with a shotgun. As for the first guy charging Horn, somehow during his headlong charge he got shot IN THE SIDE. Must have been one of those famous sideways charges. None of us were there, so my interpretation could be wrong, as could yours, but my main point is that it was all so unnecessary, and two people are dead.
reefreak29
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2674402
The cop on the scene as it happened says he did.
yes but thereport said that the cop ducked for cover behind his car so that leads me to believe he didnt see a whole lot of what was going on
http:///forum/post/2674402
The cop on the scene as it happened says he did.
yes but thereport said that the cop ducked for cover behind his car so that leads me to believe he didnt see a whole lot of what was going on
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefreak29
http:///forum/post/2674618
yes but thereport said that the cop ducked for cover behind his car so that leads me to believe he didnt see a whole lot of what was going on
He said he saw it. Are you now arguing that the cop is lying?
Bottom line; Horn did everything within the Texas Law. You may not like it, you may disagree with it, but that is the bottom line.
Had the criminals not come across the border illegally into Texas to begin with they might still be alive. Had they chosen not to be thieves they might still be alive. Had they chosen to freeze when Horn said to they might still be alive.
These two guys are dead directly due to repeated criminal and stupid choices they made.
http:///forum/post/2674618
yes but thereport said that the cop ducked for cover behind his car so that leads me to believe he didnt see a whole lot of what was going on
He said he saw it. Are you now arguing that the cop is lying?
Bottom line; Horn did everything within the Texas Law. You may not like it, you may disagree with it, but that is the bottom line.
Had the criminals not come across the border illegally into Texas to begin with they might still be alive. Had they chosen not to be thieves they might still be alive. Had they chosen to freeze when Horn said to they might still be alive.
These two guys are dead directly due to repeated criminal and stupid choices they made.
GeriDoc, you seem to be "judging' what was right or wrong in this situation. That is not really up to you, since you were not a member of the grand jury.
Horn exited his house to intercede on behalf of a neighbor; not knowing if what was happening was a burglary or if it was more than that and involved someone being victimized in that house.
He was not the executioner in the criminal justice system. It doesn't make sense to view this situation in that light. Its not a matter of stealing not rising to the consequences warranting the death penalty. Horn was never in a position to give these criminals the death penalty. He saw a crime, felt threatened himself and for his neighbor, and he defended himself and his neighbors property. The death penalty has nothing to do with this. Defending life and property is what happened here.
We shouldn't view this as a death penalty issue, or that Horn delivered some kind of justice on these criminals. That is simply not the case here.
A grand jury cleared him. He did nothing wrong. Period.
Horn exited his house to intercede on behalf of a neighbor; not knowing if what was happening was a burglary or if it was more than that and involved someone being victimized in that house.
He was not the executioner in the criminal justice system. It doesn't make sense to view this situation in that light. Its not a matter of stealing not rising to the consequences warranting the death penalty. Horn was never in a position to give these criminals the death penalty. He saw a crime, felt threatened himself and for his neighbor, and he defended himself and his neighbors property. The death penalty has nothing to do with this. Defending life and property is what happened here.
We shouldn't view this as a death penalty issue, or that Horn delivered some kind of justice on these criminals. That is simply not the case here.
A grand jury cleared him. He did nothing wrong. Period.
jmick
Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
I was only pointing out that the legal system in Texas is full of injustice and is slanted against blacks and minorities, which you of course would disagree with. Because I happen to throw this person in with some stats I put up, it makes him my champion? At least you are happy to live in a state that will execute people with mental retardation, is biased towards minorities and will allow a person to become a vigilante and kill two people for a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff.
http:///forum/post/2674161
First off, Beazley has already shed his mortal coil... thanks to the Texas Dept of Corrections.
You really should research your champions a bit beter Jmick. Here is a synopsis of good ole Napoleon.
"In April, Beazley, then 17, borrowed his mother's car and drove with two other youths to Tyler, Texas. Beazley's friend, Cedric Coleman, drove, and Cedric's younger brother, Donald, went with them. They saw a Mercedes in a restaurant parking lot. Beazley jumped out of his car, armed with a .45-caliber pistol, and approached the driver of the Mercedes. The man entered the restaurant, apparently without noticing Beazley.
Beazley got back in the car and the group began driving back home. However, according to trial testimony, Beazley told Cedric Coleman to turn back so he could shoot the driver and steal the Mercedes. Coleman pulled the car over and told Beazley he would have to do his own driving, so Beazley took the wheel.
As the group approached Tyler for the second time, Beazley spotted a 1987 Mercedes Benz. Beazley followed the car until it pulled into the garage of a house. He then got out of his car and ran to the driver's side of the Mercedes. He fired one round from his .45, hitting John E. Luttig, 63, in the head. He then ran around to the passenger's side, where Bobbie Luttig was getting out of the vehicle. He fired at her and, though he missed, she fell to the ground. Beazley then returned to Mr. Luttig, saw that he was still alive in the driver's seat, and fired again at his head at close range.
While Beazley was looking for the keys, he asked Donald Coleman, who was carrying Beazley's sawed-off shotgun, whether Mrs. Luttig was dead. When Donald said she was still moving, Beazley shouted for him to shoot her, but he refused. Beazley then began to come around to shoot her, but Donald quickly changed his statement and said that she was dead....A model prisoner during his eight years on death row, Beazley said that he was no longer a threat to anyone and could prove that he had changed. ...At his execution, the warden asked Beazley if he wanted to make a last statement. Beazley turned his head towards Suzanne Luttig, the victim's daughter, paused, and said "no." He shook his head, said, "no" again, and then turned his head to face the ceiling. He was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m.... "
Sounds like he should be nominated for Sainthood...
I was only pointing out that the legal system in Texas is full of injustice and is slanted against blacks and minorities, which you of course would disagree with. Because I happen to throw this person in with some stats I put up, it makes him my champion? At least you are happy to live in a state that will execute people with mental retardation, is biased towards minorities and will allow a person to become a vigilante and kill two people for a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2674691
I was only pointing out that the legal system in Texas is full of injustice and is slanted against blacks and minorities, which you of course would disagree with. Because I happen to throw this person in with some stats I put up, it makes him my champion? At least you are happy to live in a state that will execute people with mental retardation, is biased towards minorities and will allow a person to become a vigilante and kill two people for a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff.
Jmick, you have a serious issue to deal with and it just dawned on me. EVERY political point or stance you take is racially charged...that is a huge fundamental flaw....race is everything for you.
http:///forum/post/2674691
I was only pointing out that the legal system in Texas is full of injustice and is slanted against blacks and minorities, which you of course would disagree with. Because I happen to throw this person in with some stats I put up, it makes him my champion? At least you are happy to live in a state that will execute people with mental retardation, is biased towards minorities and will allow a person to become a vigilante and kill two people for a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff.
Jmick, you have a serious issue to deal with and it just dawned on me. EVERY political point or stance you take is racially charged...that is a huge fundamental flaw....race is everything for you.