The Cause of Our Seahorses Dieing

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2477989
We have all been taking huge losses of seahorses. After going back to the basics we came up with these theories:
1.) Lack Of Oxygen
2.) PH fluctuations
3.) Salinity fluctuations
but if I don't please let me know? I really don't want to sound like I know everything, but I do want to relay the info I work with. I am a critical care nurse, so everything I think when it comes to my captive fish relates to humanoids! I have to remind myself once in a while Fish are not humans! I do have a strong passion for marine fish, I am on my third generation of this genus!
IMO, the points you've raised are not only important, they are critical. Lack of oxygen will kill any fish. Low levels of oxygen will stress fish. Stressed fish will be susceptible to many illness, diseases and parasites.
First, let me describe my understanding of gas exchange? Only the top inch or so of the water column can exchange gas with the atmosphere. Gas exchange is oxygen moving in and carbon dioxide moving out in that top one inch, attempting to achieve equilibrium with the atmosphere. Our captive environments use o2 constantly. Bacteria, amphopods, bristle worms and tiny ciliates all use o2 and respire ("breath" out) co2. So, without strong water movement, the areas in the bottom of the tank can become low in o2 and high in co2, because of the life forms consuming and respiring.
The thing I have seen in some seahorse specific tanks is low flow.I have read on forums people advising others to have low flow because high flow is considered to be hard for the fish, having to hang on and use energy to fight the flow. I think that is wrong! If you look at the body shape of a seahorse, it seems to me they are built for high flow. A skinny side, a fat side? A flat shape that seems to be evolutionaryily equipped to be in a strong tide? We went on a trip to Belize a while back, and walked in the grass beds where these fish live. The tide flows strong enough to knock a toddler over. I have found when I have a powerhead die, and the flow is decreased, my fish seem to get a bit lethargic. I do have to turn off my pumps to feed, though!
I really think flow that is strong enough to move the water from the top to the bottom constantly is needed for any fish. If the flow is good, it should also fix issue number 2: pH fluctuations. High co2/low o2 should not be able to lower your pH if your water movement is adequate. You can easily tell if you have high co2 by taking a glass of tank water and putting an airstone in it. If the pH rises, the water had too much co2.
Salinity changes will stress fish. Easy enough to monitor and fix, though. Easy enough that there is no excuse for not maintaining this parameter constantly. Daily temp changes are harder fix, though but just as important, IMO.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2478046
Here is my conclusion:
Most, if not all of us keep a lot of macro algae in our seahorse tanks(ST). The most benifical reasons being Photosynthesis, or the conversion of light energy into chemical energy by living organisms.
Plant only use Photosynthesis during the day when it is light. At night they do not. Which causes oxygen levels to go down and carbon dioxide levels to rise.
When carbon dioxide levels rise it also effects our PH and KH(Water Hardness).
In marine tanks, KH should be between 8-12 or 125.3 and 214.8 parts per million. Over time KH levels will decrease, which causes fluctuations in our salinity. The KH levels and PH levels can be corrected by using a carbonate buffer.
So Far:
1.) Big decrease in oxygen
2.) Fluctuations of KH
3.) Fluctuations of PH
4.) Fluctuations of Salinity
Any changes in a seahorse tank causes stress. Since all of these symptoms cause the other 3 to change. The end result is four major changes in our seahorse tanks.
So how long does this process take and what can we do to prevent it?
I have a different understanding on macroalgae, or maybe I am just not understanding some of your points? I use algae (macro and micro) to use the nutrient byproducts of my fishes wastes: the nitrate and phosphate. I use water motion for adding oxygen. If a closed environment has good water motion, co2 and o2 will exchange with the atmosphere day or night. Without good flow, the conditions you describe will occur, in the pH aspect. But, algae does not affect the KH level. Well, the crusty coralines and Halimedas will use calcium carbonates, but not most of the alga we use in our tanks.
The parameters you list are all separate elements that do not neccessarily affect each other.
Oxygen is dependent on water movement, KH/alkalinity is affected by it's consumption and it's replacement by us, pH is affected by elevated CO2 levels or low alkalinity or MGSO4, salinity is affected by evaporation and replacement.
All these changes are very preventable by diligent monitoring and replacements.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2478062
Salinity changes from several causes. Evaporation, KH, PH, oxygen levels...which were subjects in our debate. One thing I failed to remember is the temperature also affects the salinity.
My 29 gallon display tank salinity: 1.023
My 29 gallon display tank temps:
75 degrees during the day
72 degrees at night.
Cold water causes salinity levels to rise. Which is one of the causes(IMHO) why we find perfectly healthy horses dead in the morning.
This salinity fluctuation is repeated when morning comes; as my tank goes up to 75 degrees
Adding more stress to our seahorses.
How long can seahorses thrive with these levels fluctuating?
I think dead fish in the am is directly related to low O2. I do not think the salinity difference between 72-75 degrees would be that significant? But, I would attempt to control your temp a bit tighter. Maybe turn the heater up so it stays at 76`?
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by ci11337
http:///forum/post/2478143
adding airstone to tank
I am not a fan of airstones to move water, unless it is a tiny nursery tank. If you add one to a larger tank and then put your hand near it to evaluate the motion, it just seems like they don't move much water. I think a more effective way would be to put a small powerhead in the top of the tank pointing down, or in the bottom of the tank pointing up.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2478289
Welllllllll....there's a lot more to it then just adding an airstone.
One of the thing I did was to remove all live plants from my DS and put a refugium on my tank. This was suggested my my friend at my lfs, Kim. By placing the live plants plants in the refugium, you remove the extra carbon dioxide produced by the plants at night. The other bonus is when your tank lights go off you turn the refugium lights on, so the plants continue to produce oxygen 24/7.
Reverse Daylight Refugium! Great way to increase o2 and stabilize pH, but an even better way to grow amphopods and copepods for your pets! Add lots of rubble to the bottom, maybe an inch or so of large grain sand and you will have the yummiest food for your fishes! Remind me when you get lots of crawly critters in there, and I will tell you a cool trick to harvest them. Be sure to add a bit of food so the pods will multiply (remembering to do it slowly so your biological filter can keep up).
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by zeke92
http:///forum/post/2478746
i think one big reason is the seahorses them selves, thats the conclusion ive come to after two of the three i bought ht eother day died for no reason.
i think the horses health when we buy them have alot to do with it, and the places they came from before the LFS where they were breed. i got tons of O2 and my tank was fine when these two died and they died the same night, i think it has alot to do with there health before we get them.

Great point. There are many reasons why our fish have decreased immune systems and weaker health overall, allowing them to succumb to many differing causes. I would love to start a thread to discuss this another day. But, I do wonder if there could have been an environmental issue for your fish to both die so quickly at the same time? When we first get fish, they are very susceptible to issues they might be able to overcome if not for the stress of S&H. Their health is very compromised.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2478864
Thanks
I hope this really helps clear up our seahorse mystery.
Our living room window looks out onto our front yard. My tank has always sat against the ajascent wall, about 2-3 feet from the bay window. So if you turned right from facing the window you would be looking at my tank. Our furnace isn't in good health either. I have been aware of the drop in temp, but from what I have read that is to be expected. Three degrees wasn't something to worry about. I have always been more concerned about temps rising too high during the day. Which I fiddled with my 90g reef tank. Took me at least a month to get the right hight of my MH lighting unit. The drop in temp is more significant during the winter here in Minnesota. During the summer, my tanks rarely have temp changes. But until I came upon this recent information regarding salinity, PH, and KH fluctuations changing due to temp, I never worried about the temp drop. My main thought was"after all, water temps change in the wild too."
I know my pony tank crash was definitely due to water levels. So my first thought with the horse tanks was to address water quality, not the temp.
Water temps do fluctuate in the wild, nearer the shore where rivers and rain enters, nearer certain areas that have thermal hot spots and the like. But, I am not sure that this genus travels much, and they might spend their entire life in one small area, where the temps are very stable. I do know that seasonal temp changes can cause a couple to spawn and I use that to encourage or discourage breeding. But, I change my temps over weeks. I think it is important to keep the temp relatively stable if possible, IMO>
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by PonieGirl
http:///forum/post/2479227
Too true..
However, with our CB SH (they are back on the Do Not Collect list, which has pushed the price through the roof), they are used to, or should be used to, stable environments.
Things that will not change are their internal anatomies....
Possibly something is evolving from the captive breeding process that governs their response to environmental levels. It is difficult to say.
Yes, I totally agree that we have issues with CB stock. I think it has much to do with their nutrition as fry. Large breeding facilities must use newly hatched brine shrimp as the first food, and even with enrichments, BBS is not capable of providing the fry with the nutrients it needs to grow a strong immune system. But, home breeders can! Check out the markings on this tiny baby: (He's been raised on copepods)
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2480964
I wonder is wild horses have been fully and carefully studied. Could there be as yet an unknown symbiotic relationship horses share with a certain bacteria to say, aid in digestion for instance? Maybe an environmental factor that triggers production of certain enzymes, etc?
Todd Gardner has done a lot of research on fry immune systems. I can find it you are thinking of breeding? He relates CB weaknesses with their initial nutrition.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2484035
They were holding onto fan corals for what appeared to be dear life in a serious current.
makes me wonder if the typical calm, tall, docile tank horses are typically kept in is actually not the right kind of habitat.
BINGO! (IMO)
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2484791
Jm, you mentioned about special food needs...those little pods have got to be loaded with all sorts of nutrients. With out a large enough tank to support a huge population of pods that can successfuly keep ahead of the seahorse's appetite...that's another negative against small tanks.
.
From the research I've done, pods are the most nutritious food for anyone, not just fish! Loaded with fatty acids, protein and the like. Nothing compares to them. But, a few seahorses in any size tank will eventually consume them, pretty quickly. They are like sunflower seeds! Yummy, and habit forming. I grow them in a sump.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by Koi Lady
http:///forum/post/2485505
I know a breeder of Erectus. I will try to talk to her and find out what she is doing right. I have seen her SH tank and it is loaded with calurpea. She does have a refugium also. So what is she doing right that we are not. Hopefully I can add good information to the mix.

Hey, girl! What up? This site rox! I love a forum dedicated to the coolest fish on the planet!
All fish should swim upright!
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by larrynews
http:///forum/post/2488319
the kelloggis i bought last time are fat and have not done any for the things that made me worry last time all 3 are great. the kuda is huge and looks great. i have a few new things in the tank to clean up extra food i have a cleaner shrimp a scooter blennie, crabs. the new stuff are 6 peppermint shrimp, a blood red shrimp and a dragon gobie, and have added an air stone
Hot, gorgeous tank! Strong work!
 

zeke92

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2489417
Great point. There are many reasons why our fish have decreased immune systems and weaker health overall, allowing them to succumb to many differing causes. I would love to start a thread to discuss this another day. But, I do wonder if there could have been an environmental issue for your fish to both die so quickly at the same time? When we first get fish, they are very susceptible to issues they might be able to overcome if not for the stress of S&H. Their health is very compromised.
if you mean something was wrong with the tank environment, everything was 100%. and the third horse was fine for days until the freak accident where it hung itself

and yeah i agree the tall docile tanks are not anything like here natural habitat. I'm going to redo my tank after reading this thread. I'm taking out my fake plants and i'm going to save up and buy tons of real plants. I'm gonna keep adding phytoplankton for the pods to jump the population. I'm gonna add another powerhead for water movement. I'm going to get some more rock aswell, and i'm going to add REAL LIVE rock and not the crap rock i had last time, i think the base rock, or dead rock, is not giving the tanks some stuff maby they need.
basically i'm gonna study there natural habitats and completely copy that in my tank.
 

rykna

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2489459
All fish should swim upright!
Thank you so much for coming aboard!!!! All of us have be burning brain cells trying to figure out why we're loosing our seahorses.
After reading your comments~ would this set up make a much more suitable environment for seahorses?
Originally Posted by Rykna

http:///forum/post/2484791
If/when I had the cash. I get a 200 gallon drilled tank. Cycle the bujeebers out of it. Add 200 lbs of LR. Have at least a 4 inch LS bed. Have a hang off refugium w/protein skimmer, a Wave 2k wave maker. I'd basically set up the tank as a large reef tank. Stock it with sponges, gorgonians, shrooms, zoos, ricordea....any thing that doesn't sting when you hitch on it.
 

koi lady

Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2489459
Hey, girl! What up? This site rox! I love a forum dedicated to the coolest fish on the planet!
All fish should swim upright!
If you guys haven't figured it out, this is Suzy!!
She is the breeder I was going to get in touch with to pick her brain about why our seahorses are dying. She has totally awesome seahorse and reef tanks. And.....she lives only about 10 miles from me.
I am glad that you have come on board to give imput. First hand information is better than relaying.

Welcome welcome welcome.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Welcome Suzy.
Looking forward to a description of hte kind of tank you've established to have the best luck with Horses.
I've never tried them myself, but these folks here are some very dedicated and compassionate hobbyists. I hate to see any of them fail.
 

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by zeke92
http:///forum/post/2489567
if you mean something was wrong with the tank environment, everything was 100%. and the third horse was fine for days until the freak accident where it hung itself

and yeah i agree the tall docile tanks are not anything like here natural habitat. I'm going to redo my tank after reading this thread. I'm taking out my fake plants and i'm going to save up and buy tons of real plants. I'm gonna keep adding phytoplankton for the pods to jump the population. I'm gonna add another powerhead for water movement. I'm going to get some more rock aswell, and i'm going to add REAL LIVE rock and not the crap rock i had last time, i think the base rock, or dead rock, is not giving the tanks some stuff maby they need.
basically i'm gonna study there natural habitats and completely copy that in my tank.
The difficult thing I've found about fish death is sometimes it is just a mystery. We can do fish necropsy to evaluate but really, without extensive testing, finding the exact cause is next to impossible in the case you bring up. We can test for some parameters in the water (nitrate, ammonia and the like), we can examine the environment but sometimes the cause is not apparent. All I can do is provide the strongest environment I can, and the best nutrition and watch them closely.
I think your new upgrades sound great! If you want to go really "au natural", look into seagrasses. I am not a big fan of them because they grow slower than algae, but once they are established, real plants with roots can be a stunning tanks.
 
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