The Cause of Our Seahorses Dieing

[suzy]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2489961
I bet you could get a clown fish too!!!

My seahorses are easily bigger clowns than my clownfish! I swear, you cannot watch a juvenile seahorse trying to mate with his brother without giggling!

 

[suzy]

Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2489973
Thank you so much for coming aboard!!!! All of us have be burning brain cells trying to figure out why we're loosing our seahorses.
After reading your comments~ would this set up make a much more suitable environment for seahorses?
Thank you so much for the welcome! This site looks really fun!
I think your description sounds like fish heaven! I would love to have enough moola to set up something like that! But, seahorses are so expensive! I think you will have to breed them to get enough to fill the tank?
Hey, everybody! Help me talk this person into joining the ranks of marine breeders? We so need hobbyists to help fill the void!

 

[suzy]

Originally Posted by Koi Lady
http:///forum/post/2490816
If you guys haven't figured it out, this is Suzy!!

She is the breeder I was going to get in touch with to pick her brain about why our seahorses are dying. She has totally awesome seahorse and reef tanks. And.....she lives only about 10 miles from me.
I am glad that you have come on board to give imput. First hand information is better than relaying.

Welcome welcome welcome.
You are too kind! Thanks for inviting me here! This site looks very non hostile and welcoming. And, you are always welcome in the basement! Or anywhere actually! Do you have Koi, too?

 

[suzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2491529
Welcome Suzy.
Looking forward to a description of hte kind of tank you've established to have the best luck with Horses.
I've never tried them myself, but these folks here are some very dedicated and compassionate hobbyists. I hate to see any of them fail.
You've never tried them? So, you are here so I can talk you into them!
Seeing a seahorse in someone elses tank is one thing: A fish that swims upright, has really interesting markings and a snick you can hear outside the tank. You might even see them swim around. But, most likely you see them stationary in the tank, not doing a lot but looking cute. Maybe you might see snick if you wait long enough.
But, when you have them in your home, you get to see the cool part: The interactions between them! Healthy, strong seahorses are very active at certain times of the day. The way they greet their mates in the morning, the way they intertwine their tales and swim together, the way literally dance in the water column to exchange eggs is one of the most fascinating displays you will ever see in a captive environment. The flashing of colors, the almost seizure like shaking, the "look at me, homegirl" pouch flushes. It is truly intriguing and alway captivating.
When was the last time you sat for 20 minutes in awe watching at your tangs? I would say for 23 and a half hours day, seahorses are boring. But, for me, that one half hour when these fish are interacting beats the few seconds I spend seeing if my sps polyps are open hands down!
Thanks for the welcome! You are very kind!

 

[veronicad]

Originally Posted by zeke92
http:///forum/post/2489294
guess i'll add an airstone then. i got lots of surface agitation but it looks like everyone is doing better with an airstone so it can't hurt i guess.
the mollies, if you see my thread, are helping keep my tank cleaner. i have had no problems yet at all and there doing great, i'm glad i decided to expiriment with them. they eat algae and other crap they can find on the ground and stuff, very helpful. i would almost suggest everyone try these.
Would you use them in a dwarf tank? So far, I've been hard pressed to find a cleanup crew that's really recommended or safe for living with dwarves. I'm sure there must be SOMEthing. Maybe you (or anyone?) has some suggestions which have worked for you?---Thanks!!!

 

[suzy]

I used an airline (without a stone) in my dwarf tanks for years. It is a great way to get water motion in a small tank. I've used them in nursery tanks, too. I have found that larger bubbles (no airstone) seem to move more water than when dispersed with an airstone.

 

[zeke92]

Originally Posted by veronicad
http:///forum/post/2493071
Would you use them in a dwarf tank? So far, I've been hard pressed to find a cleanup crew that's really recommended or safe for living with dwarves. I'm sure there must be SOMEthing. Maybe you (or anyone?) has some suggestions which have worked for you?---Thanks!!!

i'd suggest snails. i don't know why any snails would be a problem? i don't suggest crabs! or starfish!

 

[koi lady]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2492956
You are too kind! Thanks for inviting me here! This site looks very non hostile and welcoming. And, you are always welcome in the basement! Or anywhere actually! Do you have Koi, too?
You're very welcome. It is a wonderful site, well taken care of by the moderators with wonderful helpful people in the forums.
Actually I do have koi. I have a 800 gal pond in my back yard and different sizes of koi and goldfish. My waterfall pump finally died this month and my daughter says I need to go into the pond, get it out and fix it so the fish won't die. As I look at the ice on top and the fish hibernating on the bottom she was told in very distinct words that this job will wait until the sun shines fully on the pond.

 

[suzy]

Too cool! Our ponds iceberg is melting slowly....
So, back to why seahorses die? If we think of fish as tiny humans (just for the sake of discussion), it makes it easier for me to discuss their health issues. Really, fish are very similar to us. They have tiny kidneys and livers and blood that circulates through their tiny little arteries. So, thinking of them like our little children really does compute! It does seem very odd to others when we coo, make funny faces and talk baby talk to them, so I try to keep that to a minimum when I am not alone....
Fish are susceptible to bacterial and viral infections, they get tumors and masses, maybe even arthritis and diabetes for all we know! So, I think it is extremely important we do everything we can enhance their immune systems to give them a fighting chance to resist these invasions.
First, let's discuss the obvious: Their environment. Fish respire just like we do, except we have internal lungs and they have more or less external gills. But, the tissue works the same way. The fishes metabolism produces CO2 and consumes O2 that must be exchanged in his environment. If the concentrations of these gases in the water are not adequate, the fish cannot "blow off" the co2 in his body and the effect is similar to when a human commits suicide in his garage. Elevated CO builds in his blood, he gets sleepy and obtunded and goes to sleep. But, what if the CO2 is not elevated enough to kill him, just enough to cause stress? He will be lethargic and not hungry, and his over all health will suffer.
Another thing to consider is actual poison in his "air". Elevated ammonia or nitrite, even concentrated nitrate can burn the delicate respiratory system of a fish. A fish with a compromised resp system will breath rapidly. When people do this, they also increase their heart rate and humans do not survive long at this stage.
Something else can invade his environment: Air freshers, spray Lysol cleaner, paint fumes. I ban any spray anything in my fish room. My family knows I am anal and will freak if anything is in their air. We use furniture polish wet wipes, clorox wet wipes and RO water for cleaning only in that room.
I always rinse my hands before I go into my tanks. Hand lotion and perfume are all non native elements to our fish. Plus, the bacteria that is in my terrestrial world does not need to go into my fishes aquatic world.
What other environment issues can we add?

 

[rykna]

How about:
Covered Tanks V.S. Uncovered Tanks
I do not like to cover my tanks. I have never owned one of those fancy canopy tank covers. Since I was 7, I've had fresh water aquariums. When I did have the tanks covered, I used the generic tank light w/ glass cover and lid. I found that this set up trapped gases in the tank, fowling the tank water and incouraging algae, mold, and mildew to grow due to humidity.
But leaving you tank uncovered exposes it to all kinds of environmental additives, which most of us are very aware of. In captivity our fish are exposed to hundreds of chemicals that fish would never deal with in the ocean. We are taught to wash our hands before dinner, after going to the bathroom...etc,etc...We are exposed to all sorts of germs and viruses everyday. Most of which never bother us because of our immune system. I have, for the most part, operated on the idea that exposure is best, for my fish and my daughter. But how do we strengthen our fishes' immune systems? We get all sorts of shots to strengthen and shield our bodies from harmful infections. But I never quarantined Aria. She was 4 days old when we took her to her first church service. Are we doing our seahorses a favor by placing them in QT? QTs are very sterile environments compared to our DTs. One never intentionally purchases a sick or infected fish, which is why I think it is important to have a "Hospital Tank" Ready to set up. But I also think there is more stress caused by leaving a seahorse all by itself in the QT versis acclimating your seahorse to the DT. Every pet we keep, be it a dog, cat, or fish is at our mercy. They depend on us 24/7 for care, especially our fish~until someone makes a "Dry suit" for fish so they can be out in our dry, waterless environment.
So like cats and dogs...is it possible to give our fish medicated shots to help protect them form diseases? I think so, but the dosage would be be the hard part. IMHO, we can certainly try to control the "aquarium room", but we cannot prevent all bad things from entering our aquariums. So what can we do to enhance our seahorses' immune systems?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2492976
You've never tried them? So, you are here so I can talk you into them!
Seeing a seahorse in someone elses tank is one thing: A fish that swims upright, has really interesting markings and a snick you can hear outside the tank. You might even see them swim around. But, most likely you see them stationary in the tank, not doing a lot but looking cute. Maybe you might see snick if you wait long enough.
But, when you have them in your home, you get to see the cool part: The interactions between them! Healthy, strong seahorses are very active at certain times of the day. The way they greet their mates in the morning, the way they intertwine their tales and swim together, the way literally dance in the water column to exchange eggs is one of the most fascinating displays you will ever see in a captive environment. The flashing of colors, the almost seizure like shaking, the "look at me, homegirl" pouch flushes. It is truly intriguing and alway captivating.
When was the last time you sat for 20 minutes in awe watching at your tangs? I would say for 23 and a half hours day, seahorses are boring. But, for me, that one half hour when these fish are interacting beats the few seconds I spend seeing if my sps polyps are open hands down!
Thanks for the welcome! You are very kind!
Someday I'd love too. Sadly, I'm actually handing the reins of my 180 reef tank to my uncle in a couple of weeks. I've applied for a job that, provided everything works out, will be taking me overseas for a few years.
I've learned a lot keeping the tank. Someday, once I grow up and settle down, I'll assemble a huge reef tank. I'd also love a natural reef-horse tank, as well as a giant display for Cuttlefish, as they are easily the most fascinating marine creatures to me.

 

[suzy]

Overseas! Cool! Maybe you can be near the ocean and you won't need a tank!
Rykna, you bring up some very valid points. The rates of childhood disease (asthma esp) have been rising and a lot of immunologists are blaming it on our antibacterial soaps and handcleaners. Like you said, exposure makes us stronger.
About covering the tank, most of the pathogens (bacteria and viruses that can cause disease) in our terrestrial world cannot grow in saltwater. So, prevention of tank poisoning really is about things we can smell and see in the air. I don't cover my tank because of the gas exchange issue you state but if I am doing anything in the basement involving something stinky, I do!
I am kinda on the fence about quarantine. I agree with you that exposure to pathogens is vital to all my fish. I don't quarantine, but I can't recommend it to all. I really think most tanks, of those that do quarantine do get exposure though. People buy corals, and algae and add reefpods and phyto. All could have potential damaging organisms.
But, I have spend a long time researching and thinking and attempting to amplify my tanks immune system. All the things we are talking about fit into that. I'll bring up more. I do have an instant hospital "ICU" tank ready in the waiting, too. Interesting side note: I have heard of research for a vaccine for our pets, for the bacterium Vibrio. It is a common bacteria in our oceans so I am not sure how it will pan out, but we'll see? I am not sure how it will be administered though!
So, a few more things to consider in the environment category:
Biodiversity. When we set up our tanks, we usually buy our rock from one source. So, we get the crawly, the tiny and the weird bugs, worms and sponge that was in the reef where that rock was "grown". We all know that die off is huge during transport and curing. Then, the rock is transported out of the water, so we get more die off. If we can find a way to increase the organisms in our tank, we can have more diversity which might provide protection from certain elements. For instance, sponge is possibly a bacteria filter. Differing species of sponge in our rock might make the environment stronger?
I think that certain species compete with others, and some win, some lose. So, I add a small piece of rock every once in a while. And, buying a coral gets us the best live rock. It has been in the water all the time and has no die off!
I have been blessed with a few issues with this practice, though. I have had majanos, aiptasia and flatworms. But, now they are gone and I have some really funky sandbeds critters!
One more issue I can think of to come....

 

[suzy]

Temperature!
I am not sold on the idea that certain species have certain temp ranges, unless we have those fringe species. I think the ranges of areas where certain species are found are so large. If we take into account the atolls and bays, and the temp ranges from close to shore to farther away and the like, it seems like there might be a range for any species.
That being said, I do think that stability is important. Daily fluctuations would seem to be worse than a higher or lower stable temp. Because in the wild, seahorses are pretty stationary once they settle into a spot.
One very important consideration: Pathogens increase their metabolism and grow very quickly in higher temps. There is thought in the Infectious Disease community (One of my favorite Docs is the Pres of the Pus Club!) that larger concentrations of pathogens will eventually break the defenses of humans so I think it makes sense that it would be detrimental our fish.

 

[suzy]

Have we covered all the environmental issues?

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2500463
Have we covered all the environmental issues?
I think so, although I'd like to write up a summary of our findings and conclusions.
I also have a question for you Suzy, I was not able to PM you...so...
I had a crazy idea this morning. I hope you do not think me rude to ask,
I was wondering if you would be willing to have me come and visit your seahorse farm?
I'd love to see what successful tanks look like! Not to mention getting a peek at your babies.
I didn't really have a date planned, I just wanted to know if you would consider having me over for a visit.
Thank you,
Rykna

 

[suzy]

You are so sweet! I am going to cry!
But, I afraid you would be very disappointed. I only attempt to raise a few babies every few months, because I have no desire to sell any. I work full time and when I have newborns, I have to try to work my schedule with my husbands so he can feed for me. Plus, I hate to put a lot of work into them when we have a vacation coming up.
You are welcome anytime, if you plan on coming through Salt Lake for something else. Maybe a road trip to Vegas! We would be on the way, I think! Long drive from Minnesota, though.
I'll make a thread about my basement so you can see it?

 

[larrynews]

3plus weeks and my new ones are still doing great. i have notice they are alot more active since the air stone. one thing i have done is if i see them acting different i have just left them alone if they scratch no fresh water dips, just let them be. and so far so good. also but some carbon in the filter in a media bag and the water is cleaner looking and they seem to be good with it also

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2501182
You are so sweet! I am going to cry!
But, I afraid you would be very disappointed. I only attempt to raise a few babies every few months, because I have no desire to sell any. I work full time and when I have newborns, I have to try to work my schedule with my husbands so he can feed for me. Plus, I hate to put a lot of work into them when we have a vacation coming up.
You are welcome anytime, if you plan on coming through Salt Lake for something else. Maybe a road trip to Vegas! We would be on the way, I think! Long drive from Minnesota, though.
I'll make a thread about my basement so you can see it?

disappointed???? Heavens no!!!!
First off...you have seahorses...2nd...newborns to snuggle....3rd you have seahorse babies....ummm..and newborns to snuggle....and....seahorses....

Thank you so much for the invitation!!!!
My family will be taking at least 2 road trips this year. One in May for my husband's(Brian) brother's(Brent) wedding in Washington D.C. We also take a summer vacation road trip. Not sure where yet, but Salt Lake is starting look very appealing.

I'd love to see your seahorse tanks!!!!!! I'll be looking for your thread

Thanks again for inviting me over! I hope we can work something out.
Rykna

 

[rykna]

Originally Posted by larrynews
http:///forum/post/2501215
3plus weeks and my new ones are still doing great. i have notice they are alot more active since the air stone. one thing i have done is if i see them acting different i have just left them alone if they scratch no fresh water dips, just let them be. and so far so good. also but some carbon in the filter in a media bag and the water is cleaner looking and they seem to be good with it also

AWESOME!!!! How have your tank levels been? Did you notice anything different with the levels after you added the air line? It's really rewarding to hear about your success. MORE pictures!!!!!

 

[poniegirl]

Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2498976
Temperature!
I am not sold on the idea that certain species have certain temp ranges, unless we have those fringe species. I think the ranges of areas where certain species are found are so large. If we take into account the atolls and bays, and the temp ranges from close to shore to farther away and the like, it seems like there might be a range for any species.
That being said, I do think that stability is important. Daily fluctuations would seem to be worse than a higher or lower stable temp. Because in the wild, seahorses are pretty stationary once they settle into a spot.
One very important consideration: Pathogens increase their metabolism and grow very quickly in higher temps. There is thought in the Infectious Disease community (One of my favorite Docs is the Pres of the Pus Club!) that larger concentrations of pathogens will eventually break the defenses of humans so I think it makes sense that it would be detrimental our fish.
I agree so wholeheartedly on stability and consistency.
And the fun thing is that it's such an ingrained theory for our SW hobby, anyway.
I truly believe that when we achieve a balance in our tank that the major (temp, PH, SG) variables will fall into a stable, somewhat self-regulating line. The variables depend so greatly on one another, that perhaps trying to FORCE a PH of 8.4 at 74 degree temp is just NOT possible if SG is 1.024, for example.
It has long been a suspicion of mine that the so-called "ideal" readings for a SH tank are not only impossible, but trying to keep them "right" will lead to a rollercoaster that no one can live through.
I am certainly not a water chemist, but I know nature has some pretty nifty ways of taking care.