The Cause of Our Seahorses Dieing
- Thread starter rykna
- Start date
lizzy
Member
Originally Posted by larrynews
http:///forum/post/2516788
if you wanted to do the heater up and down you could get 2 heaters and put them on timers on kicks off and the other kicks on, that why you dont need to remember everyday
Thats even better!
http:///forum/post/2516788
if you wanted to do the heater up and down you could get 2 heaters and put them on timers on kicks off and the other kicks on, that why you dont need to remember everyday
Thats even better!
rykna
Active Member
Originally Posted by larrynews
http:///forum/post/2516788
if you wanted to do the heater up and down you could get 2 heaters and put them on timers on kicks off and the other kicks on, that why you dont need to remember everyday
Great idea!!!!
http:///forum/post/2516788
if you wanted to do the heater up and down you could get 2 heaters and put them on timers on kicks off and the other kicks on, that why you dont need to remember everyday
Great idea!!!!
novahobbies
Well-Known Member
Wow, how did I miss this thread??? Great reading in here, and Suzy, love your comments!
I am by no means an expert on seahorses, but after a good amount of time keeping mine, and a lot of web and library-related research, I feel comfortable enough to comment a little on your situation. I'm actually working on an article I'm going to submit to FAMA in a couple months regarding the basics of seahorse setup, and one of the things I wanted to mention in the article pertains directly to this situation...at least, I think!
I've seen all the comments on O2 levels, CO2 levels, Gas exchange, and relative current in this thread. What I didn't see mentioned is that fact that seahorses, given their more primitive nature, actually need a higher O2 saturation than most bony fishes we see in the trade! Seahorse gills are not organized into booklike structures the same way most fish's gills are -- rather, they look like "tufts" extending from an arch structure. Because of this, their ability for efficient gas exchange is reduced by a fair amount. In short, an environment that would be livable for, say, a clownfish or a tang may not have enough dissolved O2 for a seahorse!
Another thing I've noticed through personal observation is the seahorse's lower threshold for nitrates in the tank. In a standard FOWLR or FO tank, many people won't bat an eye to 'trate levels of 40, 60, or 80. On the other hand, 'trate levels seem to cause my seahorse pets a considerable amount of stress. I keep my tank as close to 0 as I can, although it usually stays around 10-20. Remember, seahorses poo a lot more than your standard fish, in part to their primitive gut (no stomach!) so there's a lot more waste to go through the nitrogen cycle.
A simple an elegant solution to both the O2 issues and the Nitrate problems can be found in -- you probably guessed it -- a protein skimmer. I saw you mentioned that you introduced an airstone to your setup. Why not get an el cheapo protein skimmer? I have a 37 gallon tall aquarium, and when I was originally researching this, I did an experiment by buying a protein skimmer designed originally to be used in a biocube tank. It had suction cups to use it in non-biocube aquaria, so I set it up with minimal modifications in my tank. This is an airstone-driven skimmer using one of the wooden stones you see, and I gotta say, it worked like a charm! The airstone naturally increased O2 levels, and the skimmate helped bring the 'trate levels down from a norm of 40 to, as I stated above, 10-20 on average. I think the biocube skimmer, which usually only costs around 35 dollars, would be easy to incorporate into your 29 gallon tank. If you're not on such a tight budget you can also look into something like a HOB skimmer/refugium. These can be used with your macroalgae on a reverse-timed light to prevent those pH and CO2 swings you were mentioning. I noticed there was a website (one we all probably know and love to complain about) who is selling a knockoff version of the Aquafuge that looks like it might be promising, and nowhere near the price of the original.
In any case, I hope you continue with your seahorse adventures! I love my two yellow reidis and spend hours sometimes watching the buggers. Happy fishin!
I am by no means an expert on seahorses, but after a good amount of time keeping mine, and a lot of web and library-related research, I feel comfortable enough to comment a little on your situation. I'm actually working on an article I'm going to submit to FAMA in a couple months regarding the basics of seahorse setup, and one of the things I wanted to mention in the article pertains directly to this situation...at least, I think!
I've seen all the comments on O2 levels, CO2 levels, Gas exchange, and relative current in this thread. What I didn't see mentioned is that fact that seahorses, given their more primitive nature, actually need a higher O2 saturation than most bony fishes we see in the trade! Seahorse gills are not organized into booklike structures the same way most fish's gills are -- rather, they look like "tufts" extending from an arch structure. Because of this, their ability for efficient gas exchange is reduced by a fair amount. In short, an environment that would be livable for, say, a clownfish or a tang may not have enough dissolved O2 for a seahorse!
Another thing I've noticed through personal observation is the seahorse's lower threshold for nitrates in the tank. In a standard FOWLR or FO tank, many people won't bat an eye to 'trate levels of 40, 60, or 80. On the other hand, 'trate levels seem to cause my seahorse pets a considerable amount of stress. I keep my tank as close to 0 as I can, although it usually stays around 10-20. Remember, seahorses poo a lot more than your standard fish, in part to their primitive gut (no stomach!) so there's a lot more waste to go through the nitrogen cycle.
A simple an elegant solution to both the O2 issues and the Nitrate problems can be found in -- you probably guessed it -- a protein skimmer. I saw you mentioned that you introduced an airstone to your setup. Why not get an el cheapo protein skimmer? I have a 37 gallon tall aquarium, and when I was originally researching this, I did an experiment by buying a protein skimmer designed originally to be used in a biocube tank. It had suction cups to use it in non-biocube aquaria, so I set it up with minimal modifications in my tank. This is an airstone-driven skimmer using one of the wooden stones you see, and I gotta say, it worked like a charm! The airstone naturally increased O2 levels, and the skimmate helped bring the 'trate levels down from a norm of 40 to, as I stated above, 10-20 on average. I think the biocube skimmer, which usually only costs around 35 dollars, would be easy to incorporate into your 29 gallon tank. If you're not on such a tight budget you can also look into something like a HOB skimmer/refugium. These can be used with your macroalgae on a reverse-timed light to prevent those pH and CO2 swings you were mentioning. I noticed there was a website (one we all probably know and love to complain about) who is selling a knockoff version of the Aquafuge that looks like it might be promising, and nowhere near the price of the original.
In any case, I hope you continue with your seahorse adventures! I love my two yellow reidis and spend hours sometimes watching the buggers. Happy fishin!
dingus890
Member
From all I have read about seahorses, Airstones are very bad for seahorses and all saltwater fish.Powerheads help the surface agitation and adds more oxygen.And you don't have to worry as much about micro bubbles that airstones usually put into the tank.
As with the temp. fluctuation.3 degrees in one day is deadly.Hardy fish may be able to handle it but not horses. 1 degrees within 24 hours maybe for horses but three would no doubt kill them.
My tank stays at 76.8 during the day and night.It sometimes goes to 77 but that's it. Visi therm stelth heaters are awesome for keeping temps stable.
Sorry about your horse Rykna
I am hoping mine fares well after reading about everyone elses Kellogi's.
As with the temp. fluctuation.3 degrees in one day is deadly.Hardy fish may be able to handle it but not horses. 1 degrees within 24 hours maybe for horses but three would no doubt kill them.
My tank stays at 76.8 during the day and night.It sometimes goes to 77 but that's it. Visi therm stelth heaters are awesome for keeping temps stable.
Sorry about your horse Rykna
rykna
Active Member
Originally Posted by dingus890
http:///forum/post/2776865
Sorry about your horse Rykna
I am hoping mine fares well after reading about everyone elses Kellogi's.
Thank you, I look forward to filling my tank with ponies in a month or so.
http:///forum/post/2776865
Sorry about your horse Rykna
Thank you, I look forward to filling my tank with ponies in a month or so.
S
smartorl
Guest
Originally Posted by dingus890
http:///forum/post/2776865
From all I have read about seahorses, Airstones are very bad for seahorses and all saltwater fish.Powerheads help the surface agitation and adds more oxygen.And you don't have to worry as much about micro bubbles that airstones usually put into the tank.
As with the temp. fluctuation.3 degrees in one day is deadly.Hardy fish may be able to handle it but not horses. 1 degrees within 24 hours maybe for horses but three would no doubt kill them.
My tank stays at 76.8 during the day and night.It sometimes goes to 77 but that's it. Visi therm stelth heaters are awesome for keeping temps stable.
Sorry about your horse Rykna
I am hoping mine fares well after reading about everyone elses Kellogi's.
With regard to the airstone mentioned, she is refering to an airstone driven skimmer, not an actual airstone there just to add bubbles. The wood "stone" generates bubbles in the tube which makes it "skim" somehow (magic?)......
I also have one of the Red Sea, $29 airstone skimmers on my dwarf tank and have had excellent success with breeding and having my ponies live out long lives with minimal losses. I never attributed it to the skimmer but it is an interesting thought now that it has been brought up.
http:///forum/post/2776865
From all I have read about seahorses, Airstones are very bad for seahorses and all saltwater fish.Powerheads help the surface agitation and adds more oxygen.And you don't have to worry as much about micro bubbles that airstones usually put into the tank.
As with the temp. fluctuation.3 degrees in one day is deadly.Hardy fish may be able to handle it but not horses. 1 degrees within 24 hours maybe for horses but three would no doubt kill them.
My tank stays at 76.8 during the day and night.It sometimes goes to 77 but that's it. Visi therm stelth heaters are awesome for keeping temps stable.
Sorry about your horse Rykna
With regard to the airstone mentioned, she is refering to an airstone driven skimmer, not an actual airstone there just to add bubbles. The wood "stone" generates bubbles in the tube which makes it "skim" somehow (magic?)......
I also have one of the Red Sea, $29 airstone skimmers on my dwarf tank and have had excellent success with breeding and having my ponies live out long lives with minimal losses. I never attributed it to the skimmer but it is an interesting thought now that it has been brought up.
poniegirl
Active Member
Whoever created the protien skimmer should receive the Good Housekeeping Award, in my opinion.
I have been a little concerned about an issue while reading through some posts and I truly believe that it has a very great impact on the longevity of our aquarium kept seahorses. I know I go on about this (or have in the past) so I'll get the apology out of the way!
Seahorses have no traditional stomach organ and have an extremely primitive and quick metabolism. They cannot store nutrients; their digestive tract is a nutritional highway; one onramp, one exit, no speed limit and no rest area.
When a seahorse consumes a large amount of feed at one time, it is a waste. They simply have no use for abundant food and are not designed to need it.
I am not sure if it is neccessarily harmful to feed them a lot at one time and I don't claim to have studied this in a scientific manner. Though I faithfully watch for new info. They are tough critters to study in their natural habitat.
They are skeletal by design and I am just not sure fattening them up is a good plan.
I have been a little concerned about an issue while reading through some posts and I truly believe that it has a very great impact on the longevity of our aquarium kept seahorses. I know I go on about this (or have in the past) so I'll get the apology out of the way!
Seahorses have no traditional stomach organ and have an extremely primitive and quick metabolism. They cannot store nutrients; their digestive tract is a nutritional highway; one onramp, one exit, no speed limit and no rest area.
When a seahorse consumes a large amount of feed at one time, it is a waste. They simply have no use for abundant food and are not designed to need it.
I am not sure if it is neccessarily harmful to feed them a lot at one time and I don't claim to have studied this in a scientific manner. Though I faithfully watch for new info. They are tough critters to study in their natural habitat.
They are skeletal by design and I am just not sure fattening them up is a good plan.
rykna
Active Member
Today Beth called me for some help. Her Blenny Scooter was missing. We torn down her entire tank. I was worried we were going to find a body since scooters hardly ever sit still. Ofcourse after ever last rock had been removed, we found the scooter-he had been hiding in the sand bed. I took him out to check for parasites. Guess what I found on him...the same little white parasitic worms that kill our seahorses! I gave him a FWD. After putting the tank back together I saved the water with the little vermin, and took a sample of tank water to my daughter's school. The biology teacher there is awesome. I had arranged yesterday to meet with him to see if he could come up with any more ideas on what may be causing our seahorses to die.
After looking at many slides of the tank water under a microscope. None of the vermin I had collected showed up. All that we found was a very strange object that was worm shaped, but we were not able to identify it. However, the pieces looked very similar to tapeworm segments.
The conclusion I came to is I no longer think the problem causing the deaths of our sea horses lies in the water quality or in the tank itself. I believe the problem is what we are feeding our sea horses.
How do dogs and cats contract tapeworms and other parasites? They eat all sort of nasty things. Sometimes the pet food can be contaminated. Our food has a shelf life, so does dog and cat food. But what about our seahorse food? It does have an expiration date, but how many times have you left your mysis out and forgot to put in back into the freezer? How many times have you left a cup of thawed mysis sitting out before you remembered to feed it to your horses?
The other thought I had about food is that we feed our dwarf seahorses live BBS which we hatch in our homes. We know everything about what kinds of supplements we fed them, the quality of water we raised them in, and everything else that goes into preparing a BBS meal for your ponies.
But for our horses we have been instructed to feed them frozen food due to the time consuming effort of hatching BBS or mysis. All frozen foods loose nutritional value the longer they stay in the freezer, especially if you thaw and then refreeze them daily. There's nothing like a fresh, hot bowl of home made soup, unless it's been sitting in the fridge for two weeks. So should we be serving our horses fresh BBS like our ponies?
In the three years I kept ponies, I have never had a health issue with them. Same water, same tank set up, but the one difference is the food. I have always feed my ponies live food. When an animal eats another animal, the prey carries some types of foreign parasites and viruses. The more exposure a animal has to foreign parasites an viruses. The stronger their immune system gets. I willing to wager that the frozen food we purchase has been sterilized to the max before being packaged. From day one our sea horses are raised in sterilized tanks and fed sterilized food. When shipping day comes our sea horses already have some health issues. Health issues would deteriorate from there. I definitely think this is worth trying.
After looking at many slides of the tank water under a microscope. None of the vermin I had collected showed up. All that we found was a very strange object that was worm shaped, but we were not able to identify it. However, the pieces looked very similar to tapeworm segments.
The conclusion I came to is I no longer think the problem causing the deaths of our sea horses lies in the water quality or in the tank itself. I believe the problem is what we are feeding our sea horses.
How do dogs and cats contract tapeworms and other parasites? They eat all sort of nasty things. Sometimes the pet food can be contaminated. Our food has a shelf life, so does dog and cat food. But what about our seahorse food? It does have an expiration date, but how many times have you left your mysis out and forgot to put in back into the freezer? How many times have you left a cup of thawed mysis sitting out before you remembered to feed it to your horses?
The other thought I had about food is that we feed our dwarf seahorses live BBS which we hatch in our homes. We know everything about what kinds of supplements we fed them, the quality of water we raised them in, and everything else that goes into preparing a BBS meal for your ponies.
But for our horses we have been instructed to feed them frozen food due to the time consuming effort of hatching BBS or mysis. All frozen foods loose nutritional value the longer they stay in the freezer, especially if you thaw and then refreeze them daily. There's nothing like a fresh, hot bowl of home made soup, unless it's been sitting in the fridge for two weeks. So should we be serving our horses fresh BBS like our ponies?
In the three years I kept ponies, I have never had a health issue with them. Same water, same tank set up, but the one difference is the food. I have always feed my ponies live food. When an animal eats another animal, the prey carries some types of foreign parasites and viruses. The more exposure a animal has to foreign parasites an viruses. The stronger their immune system gets. I willing to wager that the frozen food we purchase has been sterilized to the max before being packaged. From day one our sea horses are raised in sterilized tanks and fed sterilized food. When shipping day comes our sea horses already have some health issues. Health issues would deteriorate from there. I definitely think this is worth trying.
reefnutpa
Member
Originally Posted by Rykna
http:///forum/post/2997852
All frozen foods loose nutritional value the longer they stay in the freezer, especially if you thaw and then refreeze them daily.
First and foremost.... never EVER thaw and refreeze frozen fish foods. Secondly, while I don't agree with your opinion at all.... I certainly respect your right to voice it publicly.
Being on this particular message board for a relatively short amount of time, I have noticed in that period of time that there is certainly a lack of knowledge concerning seahorses and their proper care out there.
Improper medicines, improper tanks, improper tankmates, mixing species, mixing suppliers, buying 'tank raised' instead of captive bred.... and the list goes on. If hobbyists would not "push the envelope" in so many ways many of the problems that arise would never occur.
To state my opinion, which is just that...my opinion, the main issue causing seahorse deaths is 'hobbyist error'.
Tom
http:///forum/post/2997852
All frozen foods loose nutritional value the longer they stay in the freezer, especially if you thaw and then refreeze them daily.
First and foremost.... never EVER thaw and refreeze frozen fish foods. Secondly, while I don't agree with your opinion at all.... I certainly respect your right to voice it publicly.
Being on this particular message board for a relatively short amount of time, I have noticed in that period of time that there is certainly a lack of knowledge concerning seahorses and their proper care out there.
Improper medicines, improper tanks, improper tankmates, mixing species, mixing suppliers, buying 'tank raised' instead of captive bred.... and the list goes on. If hobbyists would not "push the envelope" in so many ways many of the problems that arise would never occur.
To state my opinion, which is just that...my opinion, the main issue causing seahorse deaths is 'hobbyist error'.
Tom
rykna
Active Member
Originally Posted by ReefNutPA
http:///forum/post/2998115
Improper medicines, improper tanks, improper tankmates, mixing species, mixing suppliers, buying 'tank raised' instead of captive bred.... and the list goes on. If hobbyists would not "push the envelope" in so many ways many of the problems that arise would never occur. I agree that these topics are all causes of our problems, however, for right now in my research, I am going through all of these causes one by one.
Tom
Thank you Tom for your insight. I completely agree with you. This is exactly why I have been posting and researching these topics. I have kept fish for almost 27 years and I have never been this baffled by a fish before. I have kept seahorses for almost five years now. IMHO one does not keep fish for 27 years and have a healthy fish die so suddenly. We are missing something. I have spent many months researching big topics like water quality, diseases, etc. Now I have turned to retracing the simple tasks in a tank that may be over looked.Any thing you can add would be much appreciated.
~Rykna
http:///forum/post/2998115
Improper medicines, improper tanks, improper tankmates, mixing species, mixing suppliers, buying 'tank raised' instead of captive bred.... and the list goes on. If hobbyists would not "push the envelope" in so many ways many of the problems that arise would never occur. I agree that these topics are all causes of our problems, however, for right now in my research, I am going through all of these causes one by one.
Tom
Thank you Tom for your insight. I completely agree with you. This is exactly why I have been posting and researching these topics. I have kept fish for almost 27 years and I have never been this baffled by a fish before. I have kept seahorses for almost five years now. IMHO one does not keep fish for 27 years and have a healthy fish die so suddenly. We are missing something. I have spent many months researching big topics like water quality, diseases, etc. Now I have turned to retracing the simple tasks in a tank that may be over looked.Any thing you can add would be much appreciated.
~Rykna