The Responsible Marine Aquarist Part2

[beth]

Well, don't know what happened to our interesting thread about sps and related hobby husbandry topics but I thought I'd start up this thread just in case anyone wanted to continue the discussion.
BTW: I didn't see it, but I was told that someone thought that my pectinia that I posted a pic of was not sps. It is. Thus, let me take this opportunity to post it again.
Big Mac, don't know if you saw my response to the question, "am I providing the best possible conditions". The answer is NO, I'm not! No one in this hobby can provide the "best possible conditions". If we narrow the discussion to captive aquaria, I'd dare to say that no one on this BB is providing the best conditions either. With few exceptions, the marine aquarist, particularly thinking of the home hobbyist, can not provide any of the creatures they keep in captivity with the "best conditions". For me specifically, I am not concerned about my lighting. What I would say, just applicable to me and my opinion, is that tank size has much to do with working towards achieving "best conditions". I have a 72 gal and only 4 very small fish. I know they would do a lot better in a 300 gal tank, as would all living marine creatures. But most of us can't have 300 gal tanks. Does that make us less conscientious?

 

[wrassecal]

Beth, your pectinia is absoulutely beautiful. FWIW, Bang Guy started a thread too "what is a healthy coral?" but it's now on page 3. I too would like to see this discussion continue and not just on sps. I wish there was a way that you mods could just delete the "bad" posts on a thread and not the whole thing, because there was some really good discussion on that thread that I'm sorry to see lost.

 

[wamp]

Beth, I think you already know this, Yes it is a Stonie you have there but not one that demands alot of light.
Nice Coral!

 

[j21kickster]

beth- i imagine it would have the same care as the open brains- looks similar in color- tissue and just overall- possiply at one point related - that looks like a brain that decided to start branching- mabye we can call it a branching brain if it does not have a common name

 

[j21kickster]

but of course it does- a hibiscus, palm, plate, antler, and lettuce (believe it or not)

 

[jonthefb]

ive said this before and ill say it again.....the little glass box that we have in our living rooms, bedrooms, dens or wherever is one giant EXPERIMENT.....there is no set way to do things in this hobby, but with any hobby/pet we should strive to provide these organisms with an ecosystem that is comprabale to that from which they were plucked....just like dogs, cats, reptiles, etc, fish/corals are animals too, and they need to be given the proper care ( whcih includes the proper equipment) so that they can live! and by live i mean grow, react to stimuli, feed and reproduce, and not cling on to dear life itself......and it is again our job as RESPONSIBLE hobbiests to educate ourselves and prepare our ecosystem for the inhabitants we plan to keep.....i too was one who kept sps and clams under power compact lighting.....sure it can be done, and my clams/corals thrived to a certain extent , but not nearly to that with which they now flourish under the MH's....I felt horrible for my corals, because they were bleaching, browning, dying in my 20 because my bulbs needed to be replaced, and now they are thriving again.....
i also have a beef with lfs's...which is kinda awkward being that i work at one....i personally am extremely proud of our shop and we have a butt kicking team of young individuals who really know the hobby and have been doing it for some time now.....we wouldnt dare sell someone a sps frag without making sure that they have the proper lighting/tank conditions, etc to ensure that the organism will thrive for that individual.....but i always hear of horror stories about people who are indadvertently sold an acro, only for it to die beacuse it was under NO lights......the problem is two fold....1. the lfs employee doesnt know the proper husbandry techniques for the organism he or she is selling....and 2. the individual making the purchase doesnt have the proper knowledge to say "hey dont sell me that because i dont have the proper lighting".....lack of information is what is killing off so many unique individuals....and herein lies the major problem!
I honestly dont see any solution to the problem, as there will always be mis/uninformed customers out there gambling with lives, but the one light at the end of the tunnel lies in captive propagation......This is one area of the hobbie that is expanding at an exponential rate, and is also one that is producing a sustainable population of corals which are hardier, and that easily thrive in home aquaria......
i spoke to the sales rep at Indo Pacific Aqua Farms....the Walt Smith company that provides only farm raised corals, and Gavin said to me that if each and every coral wholesaler farmed corals as they are currently doing, there would be no need to pull a single wild specimen out of the ocean.....
this to me is mind boggeling.....if the technology and the technique are there...why arent more and more people doing it?
here we revisit the allmighty dollar, which seems to be the root of all chaos and disorder...possibly including this little discrepancy that we are all debating.....
makes me wonder though
wow....sorry guys for the speil/rant.....this again is my own personal opinion of the trade/hobby and is not meant to agree/disagree with others, only to make you think!
good luck
jon

 

[beth]

Mac, I'm sure if the thread was deleted that the person who deleted it knows it, but so far no one discussing its disappearance in the Shark Tank knows what happened to it.
"Best possible conditions" and "Best conditions available" really changes everything. The problem when defining best conditions, is by "whose definition"? That is the dilemma/debate when discussions such as this comes up.
I think I understood very well the point that you wanted to convey, but when hobbyist start making absolute statements about specific things that should or shouldn’t be done, then, most times, that point gets muddled by the controversy that arises when talking about hobby things in absolute terms [like lighting or size of tank]. When trying to sway people or influence, I find it best to explain your reasons for your view, rather than just stating the view in unqualified terms. It was not my intention to argue about the merits of VHO for sps’s….but, rather, to just discuss the topic—your topic. You have to admit that the lighting issue is a big one, and it is hard to just accept an absolute position on it…as is the case with much of our hobby and how we set up our tanks. The information that is valuable when sharing with our fellow hobbyists, or even trying to “teach” those less knowledgeable in the hobby, is in providing the details of why something is “best” or why the hobbyist “shouldn’t” do something. As a mod in the Disease Forum for 3 yrs, I have certainly learned this…. ad nauseam considering how many times I have repeated myself since coming to SWF.com. The end result, however, I find is paying off in terms of educating hobbyists about fish care. Believe me, I can see the forest from the tree in terms of what you are trying to convey.

 

[beth]

jonthefb: Taking corals from the ocean...or just about any creature we have in our tanks for that matter...is cheaper than aquaculture. Aquaculture requires facilities and skilled employees....taking from the ocean requires some guy who makes $25 a wk by diving for fish and coral to harvest wild specimens.
I guess its up to us to be willing to shell out the extra bucks for the aquaculture.

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by Beth
jonthefb: Taking corals from the ocean...or just about any creature we have in our tanks for that matter...is cheaper than aquaculture. Aquaculture requires facilities and skilled employees....taking from the ocean requires some guy who makes $25 a wk by diving for fish and coral to harvest wild specimens.
I guess its up to us to be willing to shell out the extra bucks for the aquaculture.
plus there is a certain amount of education on the hobbist's part as well!!

 

[jonthefb]

thats too bad because this really is a discussion that involves teh future of the hobby as we know it, and it needs to be talked about!
good luck
jon

 

[azonic]

Seems I missed the thread you're all speaking of...sounds like it could of been a good read.
Anyone care to shed some light as to the subject(s) discussed?

 

[fshhub]

Originally posted by BigMac
Your kidding, right? A thread goes away and nobody knows what happen
Like so many others you missed the point of the thread, one of those points being, If your going to keep critters you need to provide them with the best condtions available.
no she is not kidding
every one of us found it interesting
but, i can tell you that as you may know, if a thread gets reported, all mods get an email. INCLUDING admin.
I got several fairly close together. and maybe ADMIN decided to pull it bc of the reports
I am reasonably sure you realize the above facts are true

 

[overanalyzer]

Originally posted by BigMac
Beth,
Here's one for ya...what's more profitable for a place that sells critters, a responsible reefer or an irresponsible reefer? Just a thought.
Here's an intersting question? If there is regulation (and many assume there will be) then at what level will this industry be regulated? The supplier level? Distributor? Retail? or User Level .... we have industries and examples of each and every level ..... and none is fool proof ....

 

[beth]

Well, the retailer makes more money off the irresponsible reefer....or the irresponsible hobbyist, or even the unknowledgable hobbyists! The less a hobbyists knows and the more "unconscientious" s/he is, the more mistakes, the more deaths, the more tank crashes...etc., thus more $$$ for the guys who sells.
My guess is that fsh is right about the other thread. I was not able to see it on Friday due to work, etc., and by the time I got in here later in the evening it was missing. From what I understand it had gotten pretty heated up and some members were sending emails to mods, and I will bet SWF.com also got some emails. Admin isn't one to just "edit" so that is likely how it got deleted. Thus, I would ask all of us who are interested in this topic that Mac started to not get raunchy. This is a worthwhile discussion, so lets stay with it and not divert off in to flaming or complaining about censorship or whatever. I'd certainly appreciate it.
And if anyone had some points regarding this topic that went up on Friday but got deleted before we had a chance to read it, please repost!

 

[scotts]

I'm sorry if this is off topic, but I will post this as it has already been mentioned. I would pay more for an aquacultered item. I already pay more for free range chicken eggs after I heard about the conditions that egg laying chickens are kept in. Not a PETA member by any means, but just trying to do my part. I had wanted a salt water aquarium for many years, but I was against taking fish from the ocean and placing them in my living room. Then I realized that my little protest was not stopping anything, and also how could we enjoy the beauty of these creatures if we did not see them.
I believe in aquaculturing creatures for tanks. I belive the best way is for the frag swaps. I am now working on some frags and hope to get a frag party going in So Cal.
But if you think about it how is a lfs to make money? Think about how many fish you have bought in the last 3 months. I have not bought any. How many people have a 90 gallon aquarium with 3 fish in it? So yes the irresponsible owner is actually more profitable to a lfs that a resposible owner.
What does all this mean? I don't know my kids have Sponge Bob on and I am watching and typing at the same time.
Scott

 

[leigh]

Re the deleted thread: while I'm certainly not a mod so I don't know for sure...the thread drastically went downhill once it hit, what was it, page four? Lots of personal insults being thrown back and forth and some weird accusations... I, for one, learned a lot from the thread, but am just as happy to see it wiped from the records.

 

[broomer5]

I've been following this discussion since the beginning.
Pretty good reading actually.
Good reading because it makes me think.
I'll try to keep my thoughts here as short, simple and to the point - as I can.
Hobbies are typically something we do for fun, as a diversion from our normal worklives. Although as I see it, hobby may not be the best term to describe it - it's not like we're collecting baseball cards or postage stamps.
We don't "put away" our hobby stuff at the end of the day.
It's ongoing ...... it's alive.
Our hobby is an attempt to keep living creatures alive, healthy, disease free - in a place they're not really intended to be living.
In a relatively tiny clear vessel of saltwater - in our homes.
In most all cases - it's a pretty hard thing to do.
Keeping something alive is hard to do.
Keeping it alive and thriving is often impossible.
Not always - but if you do - you are in my opinion a responsible reef keeper.
Being responsible or irresponsible is a judgement call.
A judgement call made by others, and a judgement call made by ourselves.
What one person considers "being responsible" may or may not jive with what another person thinks. That can make a discussion such as this difficult for sure.
Like any difficult thing to do - you normally don't do it very well when you first start out. Typically you make a lot of mistakes.
Not intentionally - but just because you are still learning how to do it right.
Unfortunately - when we mess up with our tanks or our choices of creatures - they end up dying. That's the sad part.
What is also unfortunate - is that it may take several of these mistakes before we begin to figure things out.
Why - because it's human nature, it's one way that we learn.
It doesn't have to be this way - but for most folks - it is - and will most likely remain this way.
Some figure it out right away.
Some figure it out after awhile.
Some never figure it out.
Some quit.
The point I would like to stress is that the one thing I can do - is to realize what my level of experience is - and what types of creatures I should attempt to keep ..... and which one's I should avoid.
An inexperienced reef keeper - even one with all the best state of the art equipment, lighting, water chemistry control, etc........ has no guarentee of being successful. He or she lacks experience.
An experienced knowledgable reef keeper with the crappiest equipment and set up in the world- will still be limited to what he or she may keep .... no matter what they know or how long they've been doing it.
Being responsible to me means knowing the difference between what I want versus what I'm pretty sure I can do.
Knowing what I can and can not keep healthy under my current set up and know how.
Knowing when to stop adding marine creatures to my tank - until I have done my homework up front.
Buying a coral - placing it my tank - then asking someone what to feed it or if my lighting is "good enough" ...... is not being responsible in my opinion.
Enjoying what other's have done with their set ups, and being able to appreciate the fact that they have done the research, spent the cash on the proper equipment and learned how to maintain such beautiful reef animals - is a real pleasure. A pleasure that I enjoy - because I know I can't do it yet.
I can't keep some of the corals and have the type of tank I really want. I know I can someday - but not yet.
I don't know enough, and I don't have the right conditions yet.
Someday ...
Learning how to have a reef tank like that is so challenging, and what so many of us strive for, but in some cases - people fail.
We fail because we rush into things before we're ready.
We fail because we haven't provided the right conditions these animals need.
We fail because we lack the experience.
The kicker is this ........
How does one get experienced without actually doing it ??
I read.
I try to take small steps.
I take the advise of those that do.
I avoid the advise of those that want to - but don't yet.
I try and let my tank evolve right along with my own growth and understanding of the "hobby"
I've made my share of mistakes as many have.
Was I being irresponsible ?
I didn't think so at the time.
I do now.
Sorry for rambling on

 

[beth]

Well said, broomer. I think you summed everything up here.
And true, the learning process can be fatal to organisms and very costly to the hobbyist. Patient and spending time reading and learning up front, before setting up your first tank, or even deciding what you're going to do with your first tank is so important it can not be overstated. The time to learn is before you buy anything. Get started with a real working knowledge of the hobby and the animals....not trail and error. In the days when I got in to the hobby, trail and error was just about all there was, not so now. Thus there is no excuse! I still fell guilty about the fish I carelessly killed due to ignorance.

 

[leigh]

Right on broomer. Why didn't you post that ages ago and save us all this debate!
Oooh, and ps...this and the other thread got me thinking that I really don't take good enough care of my sun coral--if you're in michigan and looking for a deal on one please see my post in trading and classifieds.
-leigh

 

[beth]

Originally posted by leigh
Oooh, and ps...this and the other thread got me thinking that I really don't take good enough care of my sun coral--if you're in michigan and looking for a deal on one please see my post in trading and classifieds.
-leigh
You forgot to mention that anyone interested will have have to have a tank that meets the coral's needs.....