There is no such thing as good versus evil

[crimzy]

This is not necessarily a war thread, but more a philosophy issue, (hopefully it goes that way). I think that there is something that the war supporters are missing, or at least an inherent difference in philosophy and belief. Here are my thoughts...
First off, I do believe in god, but I don't believe in inherent goodness or evil. I don't believe in heaven and hell. I also don't believe that god is overly concerned with judging us. I mean realistically, millions of people have been killed by natural disasters. The bible tells the stories of Noah and Job, showing the ease by which people are wiped out by the higher power. I believe that death, in the eyes of god, is nothing more than a function of the natural cycle... creation, life, death, rebirth.
This being said, I do realize why people want there to be a good and evil. We take comfort in the knowledge that we are good an righteous. Many people believe that because "I" am on the good side, I will be rewarded by an afterlife in heaven. This must be a comforting thought.
However, the strange thing to me is that our enemies also believe that they are on the side of good and fighting evil. This seems so warped to us... that the 9/11 terrorists thought that they are good and we are the evil. How is it possible that they don't know that they are on the side of evil?
The answer is very simple but most won't accept it. There is no difference between us and them. We kill their people, they kill ours. Good and evil are just a matter of perspective. We are willing to die for our cause and they are willing to die for their cause. Nobody will give their life to commit evil, but many will do so thinking that they are on the side of good. People, as a whole, are inherently violent and barbaric... regardless of which side you are on. People are a group that are responsible for terrorism, the Holocaust, slavery, the salem witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. We need to take responsibility for our atrocities.
We have created laws, not because they are good, but because they are necessary for the perpetuation of society. Many follow the law because we value our own freedom and also because we know that violence without limitation will cause anarchy, which would be the downfall of our society.
I don't know if anyone shares this perpective with me. I can see difficulty because it requires a rejection of basic, religious and strongly engrained beliefs. However, if people were to agree, then there would be a potential end to this world full of violence. How do we stop wars? The answer is simple. We must refuse to continue our natural instinct towards violence. We must refuse to be the aggressor in any situation. I have no problem with self defense because I do value self perpetuation, however, there is no need for any act of violence that is not intended to thwart an IMMEDIATE threat. The Martin Luther King, Jr. approach can lead to a peaceful world. However IMO it is impossible to achieve peace through force.
For those who disagree, please just answer one thing for me... why do you think that the terrorists hate us? Is it as simple as we are the good guys and they are the bad? Do we have any understanding of the war that we are fighting? (OK, that was 3 questions).
Sorry for the rant... actually I'm not. Anybody want to talk some philosophy?

 

[sepulatian]

I agree. There is no true reality when it comes to what can be considered "right" nor with religion. It is all belief and faith in what you believe in. People are very passionate about their oppinions and beliefs. Most beople truely think that they are correct. It has nothing to do with being closed minded. We believe what we know and know what we believe until someone proves us wrong. It is the same with many things. Science, for example, everyone is completely sure about what has been "proven" until it is proven wrong. It is the way of life. It is ment to be confusing and debatable.

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by crimzy
This is not necessarily a war thread, but more a philosophy issue, (hopefully it goes that way). I think that there is something that the war supporters are missing, or at least an inherent difference in philosophy and belief. Here are my thoughts...
First off, I do believe in god, but I don't believe in inherent goodness or evil. I don't believe in heaven and hell. I also don't believe that god is overly concerned with judging us. I mean realistically, millions of people have been killed by natural disasters. The bible tells the stories of Noah and Job, showing the ease by which people are wiped out by the higher power. I believe that death, in the eyes of god, is nothing more than a function of the natural cycle... creation, life, death, rebirth.
This being said, I do realize why people want there to be a good and evil. We take comfort in the knowledge that we are good an righteous. Many people believe that because "I" am on the good side, I will be rewarded by an afterlife in heaven. This must be a comforting thought.
However, the strange thing to me is that our enemies also believe that they are on the side of good and fighting evil. This seems so warped to us... that the 9/11 terrorists thought that they are good and we are the evil. How is it possible that they don't know that they are on the side of evil?
The answer is very simple but most won't accept it. There is no difference between us and them. We kill their people, they kill ours. Good and evil are just a matter of perspective. We are willing to die for our cause and they are willing to die for their cause. Nobody will give their life to commit evil, but many will do so thinking that they are on the side of good. People, as a whole, are inherently violent and barbaric... regardless of which side you are on. People are a group that are responsible for terrorism, the Holocaust, slavery, the salem witch trials, the Spanish Inquisition, etc. We need to take responsibility for our atrocities.
We have created laws, not because they are good, but because they are necessary for the perpetuation of society. Many follow the law because we value our own freedom and also because we know that violence without limitation will cause anarchy, which would be the downfall of our society.
I don't know if anyone shares this perpective with me. I can see difficulty because it requires a rejection of basic, religious and strongly engrained beliefs. However, if people were to agree, then there would be a potential end to this world full of violence. How do we stop wars? The answer is simple. We must refuse to continue our natural instinct towards violence. We must refuse to be the aggressor in any situation. I have no problem with self defense because I do value self perpetuation, however, there is no need for any act of violence that is not intended to thwart an IMMEDIATE threat. The Martin Luther King, Jr. approach can lead to a peaceful world. However IMO it is impossible to achieve peace through force.
For those who disagree, please just answer one thing for me... why do you think that the terrorists hate us? Is it as simple as we are the good guys and they are the bad? Do we have any understanding of the war that we are fighting? (OK, that was 3 questions).
Sorry for the rant... actually I'm not. Anybody want to talk some philosophy?

awesome. i liked reading this. i like the way you think about this and ive thought the same and believe the same, except i dont believe in god. and i hope people get involved in this. ive thought the same. we might think were doing good and so do others. but what makes it good, is it because god said its good? without god how do we know whats good or bad?
violence just leads to more violence and more violence.
laws are there to protect us, not to tell us whats right or wrong, thas up to us. laws are there to just make sure were not crashing cars into each other day and killing off the population

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
I agree. There is no true reality when it comes to what can be considered "right" nor with religion. It is all belief and faith in what you believe in. People are very passionate about their oppinions and beliefs. Most beople truely think that they are correct. It has nothing to do with being closed minded. We believe what we know and know what we believe until someone proves us wrong. It is the same with many things. Science, for example, everyone is completely sure about what has been "proven" until it is proven wrong. It is the way of life. It is ment to be confusing and debatable.
not until someone proves us wrong but more until someone persuades you know? a lot of people like to jump on the band wagon just because everyone else has, they feel left out when theyre the only person believing in what they believe. they feel so weak when people make fun of them about what they believe that they eventually just switch sides, and i feel sorry for those people

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
not until someone proves us wrong but more until someone persuades you know? a lot of people like to jump on the band wagon just because everyone else has, they feel left out when theyre the only person believing in what they believe. they feel so weak when people make fun of them about what they believe that they eventually just switch sides, and i feel sorry for those people
I agree. Political and religious issues are mostly about swaying those who "jump on the bandwagon". People who are fortunate enough to make an inteligent decision based on what they believe are better off. I am a christian but I do not believe that GOD will hate us for silly things. I have read the Bible through and I have read it it sections. I have closed my eyes and asked GOD to tell me what to read and let it fall open in my lap. People get hung up on Revelations which is where all of the "burning in hell unless you are perfect" stuff comes from. That chapter is about a vision/dream that was had. If you read it piece by piece you will see that the book was written by men telling stories of what happened to them. Books of other religions all tell the same exact story but in different views. I believe that all of the actual events happened. I do not necessarily hold true the oppionated versions of events. As far as politics go, that is a popularity contest. They all say what people want to hear and some people are ignorant enough to believe it.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
I agree. Political and religious issues are mostly about swaying those who "jump on the bandwagon". People who are fortunate enough to make an inteligent decision based on what they believe are better off. I am a christian but I do not believe that GOD will hate us for silly things. I have read the Bible through and I have read it it sections. I have closed my eyes and asked GOD to tell me what to read and let it fall open in my lap. People get hung up on Revelations which is where all of the "burning in hell unless you are perfect" stuff comes from. That chapter is about a vision/dream that was had. If you read it piece by piece you will see that the book was written by men telling stories of what happened to them. Books of other religions all tell the same exact story but in different views. I believe that all of the actual events happened. I do not necessarily hold true the oppionated versions of events. As far as politics go, that is a popularity contest. They all say what people want to hear and some people are ignorant enough to believe it.
I think with religion, people feel comforted by being a part of the group. Even if people don't believe in heaven, we strive for the sense of community that we get from our respective religions. We also enjoy feeling more righteous or even superior to other groups. Unfortunately this righteousness/superiority can blind people to the fact that we are all inherently similar. People need religion, race, nationality, etc. as a way to separate ourselves from one another. This desensitizes us.

 

[sepulatian]

Crimsy, I do believe in a ballance in life that we have no control over. A Ying and Yang, if you will, a circle. I think that people dieng is very unfortunate and sad. I grieve for people that I don't even know, but at the same time it is in the back of my mind that it is a "thinning out of the population" so to speak. I am not talking about crime or terrorism, but natural disasters have that impression on me. As for 911, have you ever seen the facts of the day? There are, on any given day, about 10,000+people in those buildings. I haven't looked at the numbers in awhile, I remember it was a huge amount. Yet only about 3,000 died. If my numbers are off, please correct me. It was a fraction of those that "should" have been in the buildings.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Crimsy, I do believe in a ballance in life that we have no control over. A Ying and Yang, if you will, a circle. I think that people dieng is very unfortunate and sad. I grieve for people that I don't even know, but at the same time it is in the back of my mind that it is a "thining out of the population" so to speak. I am not talking about crime or terrorism, but natural disasters have that impression on me. As for 911, have you ever seen the facts of the day? There are, on any given day, about 10,000+people in those buildings. I haven't looked at the nmbrs in awhile, I remember it was a huge amount. Yet only about 3,000 died. If my numbers are off, please correct me. It was a fracton of those that "should" have been in the buildings.
Your numbers are reasonable... there were a lot of people who made it out of the towers and the pentagon. Don't forget that it took hours for the buildings to come down. But I'm not really seeing where your going here...

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I think with religion, people feel comforted by being a part of the group. Even if people don't believe in heaven, we strive for the sense of community that we get from our respective religions. We also enjoy feeling more righteous or even superior to other groups. Unfortunately this righteousness/superiority can blind people to the fact that we are all inherently similar. People need religion, race, nationality, etc. as a way to separate ourselves from one another. This desensitizes us.
i believe people need religion to give them strength in situations where they feel like they just cant do it, thats great, but i think people should become stronger for themselves and deal with things right away instead of leaving it to a god. i also think people need religion becuase they dont want to face the fact that there may not be anything afterdeath and they wont be reunited with everyone. you messed up your life on this world and theres nothing after death. people fear death and use religion as a crutch. i still wonder about things though. i mean, religion is good that it instills some morals, but these are just things anyone can end up finding on their own. naturally, a tribe is not going to want to kill themselves or each member because of something stupid, but work as a team to grow and branch out and help the tribe.

 

[nietzsche]

i think what he means is maybe that this was another way for a population to be reduced, just like storms or any other natural disaster might have done, just a different form.
kind of like barrier reefs, some animals get so out of control that they take over the reef and kill it, and then another animal emerges that kills that one and everything comes back into balance...
am i wrong sepulatian?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I think with religion, people feel comforted by being a part of the group. Even if people don't believe in heaven, we strive for the sense of community that we get from our respective religions. We also enjoy feeling more righteous or even superior to other groups. Unfortunately this righteousness/superiority can blind people to the fact that we are all inherently similar. People need religion, race, nationality, etc. as a way to separate ourselves from one another. This desensitizes us.
I would have to agree that people, as a whole, want to be a part of the "group". I go to church once in a while but would rather read the bible by myself. I have prayed and seen amazing results in the past. It is different for everyone. I personally think that if you do not ask out of selfishness but ask for other reasons that God is happy to help. You can't just always ask for help, you have to thank him for what he has done, but he has helped me many times with very specific things. It is because I believe that he will. I am not saying anything about anyone else, just what has happened with me.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
i think what he means is maybe that this was another way for a population to be reduced, just like storms or any other natural disaster might have done, just a different form.
kind of like barrier reefs, some animals get so out of control that they take over the reef and kill it, and then another animal emerges that kills that one and everything comes back into balance...
am i wrong sepulatian?
Did you just refer to me as he? LOL I am the blond in the pic, not the guy! You have it exactly though.

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Did you just refer to me as he? LOL I am the blond in the pic, not the guy! You have it exactly though.

lol sorry!!!

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
I would have to agree that people, as a whole, want to be a part of the "group". I go to church once in a while but would rather read the bible by myself. I have prayed and seen amazing results in the past. It is different for everyone. I personally think that if you do not ask out of selfishness but ask for other reasons that God is happy to help. You can't just always ask for help, you have to thank him for what he has done, but he has helped me many times with very specific things. It is because I believe that he will. I am not saying anything about anyone else, just what has happened with me.
yeah and its good its working for you. if things like this work out for you then youre not going to need anyone telling you change this or that. i think with me, just being cautious, making the right decisions, and doing the best i can works for me. granted there are times where i fall, but i have no one to blame. i get back up and keep going. everyone falls.
my gf believes in karma but i really dont know about that. i kind of do. i was going to work at this lfs, petland, and after the first day of training i was just disgusted with what they believed in. all they cared about was selling puppies, who cares about any other living animal who has just as much of a right to live? i also asked about why they were cycling with fish and they could care less. he went on about discussing his plans about making one of the tanks and putting some kind of alligator in it. i ramble on, but anyways, i decided not to go back anymore. couple days later people broke into their store and stole 4 expensive dogs. i kind of sat there watching the news thinking, "damn.. someone must have said something really bad about me. lol. poor dogs."
pretty strange how things happen though

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
yeah and its good its working for you. if things like this work out for you then youre not going to need anyone telling you change this or that. i think with me, just being cautious, making the right decisions, and doing the best i can works for me. granted there are times where i fall, but i have no one to blame. i get back up and keep going. everyone falls.
my gf believes in karma but i really dont know about that. i kind of do. i was going to work at this lfs, petland, and after the first day of training i was just disgusted with what they believed in. all they cared about was selling puppies, who cares about any other living animal who has just as much of a right to live? i also asked about why they were cycling with fish and they could care less. he went on about discussing his plans about making one of the tanks and putting some kind of alligator in it. i ramble on, but anyways, i decided not to go back anymore. couple days later people broke into their store and stole 4 expensive dogs. i kind of sat there watching the news thinking, "damn.. someone must have said something really bad about me. lol. poor dogs."
pretty strange how things happen though
Yeah, speaking of strange things. Three kids broke into the church that I go to once in awhile, but my parents and my grandmother go every week. They stole the ministers video camera but there wasn't much else to steal. It is a nice church but they don't leave things lying around. The kids sprayed a fire extinguisher all over everything and urinated all over the alter. How disrespectful can you get? One of the kids (and when I say kids, one was 16, one 14, and one 13) had both parents as members of the church. They were so incredibly embarassed. I am a substitute teacher/ teaching assistant. I was called to work with the 16 year old (I found out it was him later). To make a long story short, this kid's house caught fire for no reason days after this happened. The damage was not too bad. The firemen came and put it out, they stayed for an extra two hours to be sure it was not going to light again. The family went to a friends house for the night. After everyone was gone the house burned to the ground. The 14 year old was hit by a car while he was walking and just broke his leg. The 13 year old fell and broke his arm. These events were consective after they desecrated the church. They were all in situations that could have killed them if god wanted to, but didn't.

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
Yeah, speaking of strange things. Three kids broke into the church that I go to once in awhile, but my parents and my grandmother go every week. They stole the ministers video camera but there wasn't much else to steal. It is a nice church but they don't leave things lying around. The kids sprayed a fire extinguisher all over everything and urinated all over the alter. How disresectful can you get? One of the kids (and when I say kids, one was 16, one 14, and one 13) had both parents as members of the church. They were so incredibly embarassed. I am a substitute teacher/ teaching assistant. I was called to work with the 16 year old (I found out it was him later) To mak a long story short, this kids house caught fire for no reason days after this happened. The damage was not too bad. The firemen came and put it out, they stayed for an extra two hours to be sure it was not going to light again. The family went to a friends house for the night. After everyone was gone th house burned to the ground. The 14 year old was hit by a car while he was walking and just broke his leg. The 13 year old fell and broke his arm. These events were consective after they desecrated the church. They were all in situations that could have killed them if god wanted to, but didn't.
wow thats incredible. i guess karma might exist? maybe he should have stolen the fire extinguisher lol, hope that doesnt offend you, but really. thats just really disrespectful.
speaking of fires ive dealt with so many happening, even one where i was driving and the car caught on fire. i think so many things happen, even to good people, and for god not to intervene and give them a break is just bad. i think thats what turned me away from god. things kept happening. and why? i stopped believing after so many things happened. what makes it worse is when bad things happen and all you get are a bunch retards who just stop and stare instead of doing something. i think thats what made become someone who will quickly snap and help someone as soon as i see trouble, because i know if i was in the situation id want help. i leave things up to me. theyre my choices and only i can help out myself and live through things. become a better and stronger person within and never rely on something that doesnt want to help me back

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
wow thats incredible. i guess karma might exist? maybe he should have stolen the fire extinguisher lol, hope that doesnt offend you, but really. thats just really disrespectful.
speaking of fires ive dealt with so many happening, even one where i was driving and the car caught on fire. i think so many things happen, even to good people, and for god not to intervene and give them a break is just bad. i think thats what turned me away from god. things kept happening. and why? i stopped believing after so many things happened. what makes it worse is when bad things happen and all you get are a bunch retards who just stop and stare instead of doing something. i think thats what made become someone who will quickly snap and help someone as soon as i see trouble, because i know if i was in the situation id want help. i leave things up to me. theyre my choices and only i can help out myself and live through things. become a better and stronger person within and never rely on something that doesnt want to help me back
I was that way. I thought I could "control" my destiny. You realy cannot. What is going to happen will happen. I learned to step back and enjoy the ride. Don't get me wrong, the interpretation of what I am saying now is very loose. It is different for everyone. The best you can do is to try. There are many things in life that you cannot change. There are things that you can. Figure out which is which and don't get mad at stuff that you cannot control. If the bus/train/traffic is late/ backed up, there is not a damn thing that you can do about it. Don't get mad. Go with the flow and change what you can. You cannot control the universe though. Things happen that are far out of our control. No one can say what they are. It is all a matter of oppinion and belief.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
....The answer is very simple but most won't accept it. There is no difference between us and them. We kill their people, they kill ours. Good and evil are just a matter of perspective. ...
I'm not going to get too involved in this thread, but first; Your summary of the Bible is flawed.
Second;
I will never strap a backpack full of explosives on myself and blow it up in a school bus full of kids....
No difference? I'm a lot different than that... I'm a lot "better" than that.

 

[reefraff]

The terrorists hate us because in most cases they have been programmed to do so from a very young age. The west has at times played into the hand's of the EVIL men who use their religion to serve a political purpose. Other religions have been guilty of this in the past as well.
One difference between "us" and "them" you should keep in mind is "us" will put our military personal at additional risk in an attempt to not bring harm to non combatants like women and children. "Them" on the other had have no reservations targeting women and children.
"Us" as a culture were outtraged when prisoners of war were put through what wasn't any worse than some college freshmen endure pledging to a fraternity. "Them" stood and cheered as 4 civilian contractors were murdered, their bodies mutilated and burned then hung from a bridge. People were even posing for pictures along side the hanging bodies.
There is good and evil. Hitler's Holocaust, African war lords committing genocide, Child molestors and whoever created Rap music are examples of evil.
Examples of good. Mother Teressa, Ghandi, Father Flanagan, Leo Fender and the 100"s that ran into the crumbling WTC 911 to help others get out.
(hope I didn't need to insert smileys for your to catch the jokes)

 

[aztec reef]

sounds like some people have gotten the message..